I would like to know how often in the real world a surge or some other anomaly comes along
I would like to know how often in the real world a surge or some other anomaly comes along
It definitely happens.
Please forgive my ignorance, could you please describe under what conditions this happens? And what happens?
I see a lot of discussion here that these cheap-ass multimeters are "low voltage only". Yet *none* of them failed to measure voltage in mains. I also didn't see meters failing below 1kV. So, where the danger comes from? (assuming probes are of any decent quality).
My next question would be how failing to survive a "high-energy test" compromises safety (if the meter does not completely explode, of course).
My next question would be how failing to survive a "high-energy test" compromises safety (if the meter does not completely explode, of course).
Fluke has some good info on their website.
That's the thing - they often do explode. Watch the videos in this thread
There can be dangerous power surges in the mains due to nearby lightning strikes or faults in the distribution system that allow high voltages to jump over onto the low voltage side. The usual impact of this is to damage equipment in your house like televisions or computers, or in the worst case to set your house on fire.
I was waiting for this comment
How many meters actually exploded just by connecting to mains?
If I repaired consumer products or just considered how often my own AC line powered equipment has been damaged in my house over my lifetime, would I somehow feel it relates to what can happen through out the world under all conditions? Would I ever suggest that any of the testing I show has anything to do with how safe a meter would be if exposed to a real surge condition? Of course not.
I would imagine there are people who believe jumping a fuse with wire is an acceptable practice for all environments. It may very well be a person could be fine in their little bubble.
My interest has always been in low energy robustness. That's why I make a bigger deal about the EMC than the safety standards. It's not that I don't care about safety as much as it is rare I am at risk in the home hobby lab.
I can understand owning an expensive meter like the 87V, having total confidence in it and then with all your love for the meter, someone comes along and shows that it can be damaged at levels that many low cost meters also fail at. Rather then simply acknowledge it, you choose to defend it and claim the tests have nothing to do with what you do in real life. That's all fine. I see the same response from many of the meters I run. I would expect that if I ran Dave's 121GW and it failed the puny grill starter test, Dave would defend that the test was pointless and not how it is conducted in the real world.
But again, that's not why I run the tests. I have no love for any meter. I would toss the Brymen aside if I found something I liked better. I run them against a standard to see how electrically robust they are with one another. I can't help it if you feel Fluke got a bad shake in the testing. I run the test and present the findings. If you have no interest in watching the videos and feel there is nothing you can learn from them, to be honest I don't understand why you are wasting your time with them.
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I bet your car has seatbelts and airbags though.
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Enough that they eventually developed some standards and safety ratings.
My intention was not to diminish your tests or your results, but I do think my question was valid on it's own. Possibly it might have been better posted in another context. By all means do keep it up and I don't feel I'm wasting any time watching your videos.
And as for learning - there's no doubt in my mind your training and experience is an order of magnitude better than mine, if not more.
I do cringe a little at some of your tests...
Sadly, all the safety codes and regulations are designed to guard against the ignorant, the people who don't know what they are doing. This is called "the nanny state". It's a shame, but I guess we have to live with it.
I have a ceiling fan and needed to replace its switch. Drove to all the local stores and could not find one switch that was UL rated. This switch has the potential to cause an electrical fire. I would GLADLY pay for a good certified switch but there are none to be had. We do not make them here anymore that I have found. I doubt the average consumer will care unless something happens. Even then my guess is the finger would be pointed at the installation and not the switch itself. There used to be public service announcements to help educate the general population about things like UL. Now we talk about quality rather than practice it. Fan I would guess is I would imagine nearing 40 years old now. The larger white switch is make by KTE and was the original The smaller switch is what I used to replace it. Note the CSA and RL marks on it. The pull mechanism in this switch failed in maybe 5 years or so. That's how bad the quality is. The new switch is even cheaper made with no cert.
Keeping stats like this I'm sure is a mental illness of sorts, like stamp collecting.
About home appliances, they have their own safety ratings, for now. Like the switch, I am not suggesting all the crap we import is certified for safety. The outside metal cases are grounded. Double insulation, single ground point. Bond wire testing. HI-POT testing. Nothing like a hand held device you would hold in your hand while you are probing mains. Not that someone could not rewire their microwave to short the two lines together while the covers are off with no fuse in place, but I have seen a few crap meters that had no fuse where someone could easily do just this, short the lines. And even if you did own a meter that had HRC fuses to help protect you, nothing prevents you from being stupid and shorting out the fuse with a wire.
Again, I have little to no interest in multimeter safety because I do not work in an industry where it concerns me and I know enough to limit my own risks at home.
If I Google "electrical fatality statistics", there's all sorts of information that comes up. I added the word "multimeter" to the search (this stuff is not rocket science). Now here is an interesting article. Could be a fear based ad still.
http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2008/07/16/multimeter-accident-prevention-plan-an-electrical-inspectors-survival-guide/
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I can always count on you adding to the technical discussion. Did you need to add or remove a period?
They had to remove the carpets on the ISS:
They had to remove the carpets on the ISS:
It's all extra weight, and accidentally dropping one isn't much of an issue up there.
My intention was not to diminish your tests or your results, but I do think my question was valid on it's own. Possibly it might have been better posted in another context. By all means do keep it up and I don't feel I'm wasting any time watching your videos.
And as for learning - there's no doubt in my mind your training and experience is an order of magnitude better than mine, if not more.
I do cringe a little at some of your tests...
I am not a repair tech nor am I an electrician. I am open to discussing your thoughts about the testing I have done. It's not like there is a pool of information where there are industry standards on how to benchmark meters for their electrical robustness. This is what happens when you take a simple idea like "I wonder if a cheap $50 meter is more robust than a $400+ meter" and act on it. Because it's not something that is commonly done (maybe never) it leads to confusion. Then we have the internet with it's vast pools of experts on the mater. After a couple of years, it seems we have heard it all.
There is little you or anyone could post that would diminish the testing I have done to date. It's just data to me that I collect it and present. Everything is open as far as what I have done. If you feel your 87V is "reliable and consistent, and safe. Period" that's all fine. Your personal feelings do not go against anything in the data I have shown for the 87V. I have never collected data for safety or reliability. Nor have I studied what I would consider makes a meter consistent. So I won't disagree with you as I have no data that says otherwise.
I am only looking electrical robustness and the 87V is just not very robust when compared with some of the other meters I have looked at. I will give you that the 87V is way more robust than the UNI-T's that failed the puny grill starter test. That has become a standing joke around here. Even my wife will ask, "did it fail the grill starter"
What's to cringe at? The energy levels are fairly low, I have a fair amount of safety checks built into the generator and if I play with something that may pose a high risk it's behind a half inch thick plate of Plexiglas (more to protect the camera). Any time I play with the half cycle generator, I am a fair way away and out of the direction of the blast. The risk is low for me but it's not something I would suggest the fuse jumping crowd get involved with.
https://www.copeplastics.com/plexiglas-impact-resistance.html
I just cringe at the impending destruction of a perfectly decent (for most of us anyway) meter. It's cool you're able to fix most of them however.