No, you just don't get it. I don't compare or equate my expertise or observations with "entire teams of electronics engineers that do testing day in, day out with special-purpose equipment in dedicated labs", in fact I like working on and repairing equipment designed by such people because I can admire and learn from their efforts. However, I don't confuse high-quality products made by such companies with rubbish hacked together on a shoestring by third rate hacks.
Do you learn nothing from people who are asked to make a full size multimeter at a $25 price point?
If anything, it's more difficult then working on a massive budget to make a "high quality" meter.QuoteAs long as we are making broad statements, I'm curious to know your opinion which is safer, a Chinese product certified by Intertek or a self certified Japanese product?I'm not playing your game, sorry.There's no way I would touch that one but I thought you may take a swing at it.
Yep. Anbody that frames this as "China vs. Japan" instead of "Uni-T vs. Hioki" is at the Donald Trump level of debate.
Do you learn nothing from people who are asked to make a full size multimeter at a $25 price point?
If anything, it's more difficult then working on a massive budget to make a "high quality" meter.
As long as I am thinking about it, a member had asked about connecting the UT61E+ to the 220V mains with it set to the resistance mode. I had checked your review and you did not run that test. Because I had already damaged the one I bought, any way to talk you into running it with yours?
Left on for 10 seconds, survives just fine at the nominal 245V here. Readings a smidge low as the PTC recovers.
The damaged meter was a Dick Smith Q1425 and has a 40 pin ICL7106CPL dated 10/94 so almost 27 years old but in immaculate condition for its age.
As long as I am thinking about it, a member had asked about connecting the UT61E+ to the 220V mains with it set to the resistance mode. I had checked your review and you did not run that test. Because I had already damaged the one I bought, any way to talk you into running it with yours?
Left on for 10 seconds, survives just fine at the nominal 245V here. Readings a smidge low as the PTC recovers.
Thanks. I tried running mine 300VACRMS 60Hz and it also survived.
.... If it were, we would all be experts at everything. ...
We are!
https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2018/03/death-of-expertise-by-tom-nichols
I have had a few people ask me about testing AC line devices which point to just how ignorant some viewers are. I don't see that changing although I run into it less and less.
The damaged meter was a Dick Smith Q1425 and has a 40 pin ICL7106CPL dated 10/94 so almost 27 years old but in immaculate condition for its age.Another 10 years or so and it would probably have been manufactured in Japan.
...
Is it a third party independent testing a better scenario than self-certification or reputation alone? Yes, of course, especially since most people don't understand the technicalities of what they are buying
- unfortunately this hasn't been he ideal scenario as time and time again it has been proven it is caveat emptor. That is why youtube and the internet have been acting as a "fourth party" source of information.
.... If it were, we would all be experts at everything. ...
We are!
https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2018/03/death-of-expertise-by-tom-nicholsWell it is OT but because you linked it, I think what he describes there is also a good case for a good general education with a broad spectrum even if most of that knowledge will never be needed for for an employment.
Of course "social" media oppinion bubbles just makes the situation much worse.
I have had a few people ask me about testing AC line devices which point to just how ignorant some viewers are. I don't see that changing although I run into it less and less.
I don't know what the "ignorant" people asked from you, but both general household appliances, and especially the common surge protectors are a very interesting topic with all sensitive elctronics to find in an everage household. And the protection itself is very similar to what you can find in the multimeter.
So though you would of course classify me as ignorant too, but I would be really interested in both how an appliance (can be anything like a modern washing machine control board) behaves just with a 2-3000 V small voltage spike what your generator outputs, what different surge protectors let through, and of course what happens if a surge protector really meets with its thaoretical 30-70Ka rating.
(Yes I know that it is not your generator...)
Possibly a huge amount af goods is getting damaged because of this, even without any serious lightning strike or similar big issue.
Another 10 years or so and it would probably have been manufactured in Japan."all the best stuff is made in Japan..."
I am not aware of any appliances that use surge rated resistors in series with PTC and then shunted with MOVs, with selectable low voltage clamps made from back to back transistors. I have had people write me about running my tests too fast and over heating the MOVs in the DMMs.
People have asked me about running devices which would attach to the mains like power supplies and surge protectors across my generator. Yes, very ignorant. Sadly, the people who ask I expect lack the basic education to understand even the basics of what has been shown, so I don't see an easy fix.
The problem with relying on information from YouTube or any other form of social media rather than information from independent testing and certification companies is quite obvious to me. If you have to take any information from independent testing and certification companies with a grain of salt, information on social media requires a truckload of skepticism and common sense - and time. Since I don't have much common sense and very little time, I always prefer to rely on information from independent testing and certification companies, however flawed it may prove to be in some cases.
Left on for 10 seconds, survives just fine at the nominal 245V here. Readings a smidge low as the PTC recovers.
Left on for 10 seconds, survives just fine at the nominal 245V here. Readings a smidge low as the PTC recovers.
So I'm curious about why these tests would be conducted at those levels on meters with a CAT-anything label at. Should the meter not withstand, without damage, the application of full rated voltage (1000V in this case) to any input on any setting?
...
Is it a third party independent testing a better scenario than self-certification or reputation alone? Yes, of course, especially since most people don't understand the technicalities of what they are buyingSo our views coincide on the matter of independent certification.
- unfortunately this hasn't been he ideal scenario as time and time again it has been proven it is caveat emptor. That is why youtube and the internet have been acting as a "fourth party" source of information.The problem with relying on information from YouTube or any other form of social media rather than information from independent testing and certification companies is quite obvious to me. If you have to take any information from independent testing and certification companies with a grain of salt, information on social media requires a truckload of skepticism and common sense - and time. Since I don't have much common sense and very little time, I always prefer to rely on information from independent testing and certification companies, however flawed it may prove to be in some cases.
That's the theory but you never know for sure.
I understand that it is not exacly the same setup...
Left on for 10 seconds, survives just fine at the nominal 245V here. Readings a smidge low as the PTC recovers.
So I'm curious about why these tests would be conducted at those levels on meters with a CAT-anything label at. Should the meter not withstand, without damage, the application of full rated voltage (1000V in this case) to any input on any setting? AFAIK, even supposedly fragile CAT I bench meters will pass that test. Some older pre-CAT bench meters have separate, lower specifications for voltage protection on ohms and such, but even the old Fluke 8842A will pass that test.
I'm referring to meters that some claim to be properly rated, not ones where there isn't any dispute that the CAT info printed on them is a bad joke.
Again, they are not even close. And again, the generator was designed not to simulate AC mains conditions, or anything even close to it.
Some of the smaller PTCs are only rated for 500V. Some meters have only a single PTC which if the low voltage clamp is active, will have well over 900V across them.... Maybe.... Turn the dial, I suspect you will get a light show.
Again, they are not even close. And again, the generator was designed not to simulate AC mains conditions, or anything even close to it.
Do they need to be? HiPot testing is a valid method of looking at potential HV breakdown (obviously not L-L in a normal operating mode) without riding on any mains, so why not consider it as transient HiPot method? It certainly would at least be a usable diagnostic tool that can be used to non-destructively find weak points. One would have to learn how to interpret the results just like you do with an old engine analyzer ignition scope.
Some of the smaller PTCs are only rated for 500V. Some meters have only a single PTC which if the low voltage clamp is active, will have well over 900V across them.... Maybe.... Turn the dial, I suspect you will get a light show.
Well that doesn't sound very robust! I don't know if that is a failure to meet a standard or not, but it seems like a basic expectation to me. Every CAT labelled meter I currently have that isn't known junk should pass that test. Some of them already have by accident.