So you are suggest to use a high pot tester across the meter with it set to the volts mode?
I've seen a few people post videos (including Dave) using an insulation tester.
There was a guy posting about using a stun gun to test meters. I wrote them but they never responded.
Another option would be to actually get a combo generator tied to the mains and a nice blast shield.
All fun ideas and if anyone starts a channel where they run the meters this way, I will watch.
What would be the most important difference with a mains voltage spike with lets say 3000V P-P with the same energy level that your generator creates, to a spike 3000V p-p with your generator?
Just because it is half wave? There are no half wave spikes on the AC line?
But to turn around the argumentation, if the effects of spikes on the mains are so different(same joule level), than your generator shoud simulate rather those, because those will most likely hit the meter.
But you see I am that kind of ignorant who is trying to get an expert oppinion even if seek a bit more detailed one
Edit: Or what you could mean the aftermath of the possible shorts with main condition? Because like bdunham7 says after any breakdown(or letting through spikes) the interpretation is up to the viewer.
[...] Some of the smaller PTCs are only rated for 500V. Some meters have only a single PTC which if the low voltage clamp is active, will have well over 900V across them.... Maybe.... [...]
I understand. Still disconcerting the UT61E+ LCD display flickering during the BBQ lighter tests, it might be an EMC issue. I hope the IC is not getting damaged.
One could look at the input current to a multimeter during an ohms-function overload, to see the PTC heat up and settle. ...
I suspect the thermal mass of the PTCs prevent it from responding to the transients I apply.
What would be the most important difference with a mains voltage spike with lets say 3000V P-P with the same energy level that your generator creates, to a spike 3000V p-p with your generator?
The short circuit current waveform will not be even remotely close to correct, the FWHH is twice what is called out, lack of a coupling network, lack of a way to synchronize it or change the phase, lack of polarity selection, lack of support for both 50/60 Hz, lack of ability to select the mains amplitude. I think I would also like to run burst as well as surge. There are also several other tests that would be performed.Just because it is half wave? There are no half wave spikes on the AC line?
But to turn around the argumentation, if the effects of spikes on the mains are so different(same joule level), than your generator shoud simulate rather those, because those will most likely hit the meter.
Where did you get the idea that they have the same energy levels? You assume I am using these meters on the mains. I've been pretty clear about that. While there are standards in place for qualifying various devices for mains use, this is not what I have been showing over the last few years.But you see I am that kind of ignorant who is trying to get an expert oppinion even if seek a bit more detailed one
Edit: Or what you could mean the aftermath of the possible shorts with main condition? Because like bdunham7 says after any breakdown(or letting through spikes) the interpretation is up to the viewer.
Your opinion is that the waveforms I use to test the meters are adequate to test mains devices. My opinion is that you're ignorant on AC mains testing. Of course, you could start doing some research if it interests you and correct that deficiency but you will not find many details in this thread about it.
...
I certainly agree that thesignal-to-noisenoise to signal ratio on YouTube, or even EEVBlog can be quite high. But you make it seem as if there are only two choices--social media or Intertek--and that your decisions somehow need to be made on technical merits. You say you 'prefer to rely', which to me means 'choose to believe'--a silly concept IMO, but we'll go with it. I opt to rely on a the technical merit and integrity of companies that have provided excellent products that have served me and others reliably, sometimes under very tough conditions, for decades.
...
...
The short circuit current waveform will not be even remotely close to correct,
...
Where did you get the idea that they have the same energy levels?
...
Your opinion is that the waveforms I use to test the meters are adequate to test mains devices. My opinion is that you're ignorant on AC mains testing. Of course, you could start doing some research if it interests you and correct that deficiency but you will not find many details in this thread about it.
Thanks for the more detailed explanation, but if I am not completely wrong, we might talk about two different thing.
...
And if the rise time is the same, the peak voltage is the same and the energy as well, than the short circuit current waveform during that small spike can not be that different.
...
Where did you get the idea that they have the same energy levels?
That's called "reputation" and if you "choose to believe" in the reputation of any particular company, that's your subjective choice, based on a) your personal anecdotal experience, b) the anecdotal experience of others and c) a carefully constructed brand image. I prefer to rely on independent testing and certification reports which despite all their flaws, are an objective criteria.
...
The short circuit current waveform will not be even remotely close to correct,
...
Where did you get the idea that they have the same energy levels?
...
Your opinion is that the waveforms I use to test the meters are adequate to test mains devices. My opinion is that you're ignorant on AC mains testing. Of course, you could start doing some research if it interests you and correct that deficiency but you will not find many details in this thread about it.
Thanks for the more detailed explanation, but if I am not completely wrong, we might talk about two different thing.
...
And if the rise time is the same, the peak voltage is the same and the energy as well, than the short circuit current waveform during that small spike can not be that different.
...
While I could continue to explain to you that the energy is not the same, you would ignore it. I askedQuoteWhere did you get the idea that they have the same energy levels?thinking I may be able to explain where your thinking is flawed but you refused to answer. Ignorance can be overcome easily with education but I suspect learning is also a problem for you. It's similar to discussing the basics with the people interested in perpetual motion. It becomes a religion to them and they can't move beyond it.
I understand that it is not exacly the same setup,but it is similar, by means of trying to clamp down an overvoltage to save a microcontroller, and other sensitive stuff.
Even small energy spikes get through the main lines which damage equipment.
And it is indeed interesting, what different surge protectors can let through from even these small energy spikes.
So if you mean it is ignorance because the small energy involved, than again, you don't necessary have huge surges on the AC line.
I did not ignore your question, but the starting assumption of the discussion was this, and I supposed you read it:
I understand that it is not exacly the same setup,but it is similar, by means of trying to clamp down an overvoltage to save a microcontroller, and other sensitive stuff.
Even small energy spikes get through the main lines which damage equipment.
And it is indeed interesting, what different surge protectors can let through from even these small energy spikes.
So if you mean it is ignorance because the small energy involved, than again, you don't necessary have huge surges on the AC line.
You did not argue with this statement. That is why I asked you what else can be so dramatically different if we are talking about LOW ENERGY SURGES. But than you got back to the energy level.
If I commented this in your style would that raise the quality level of the discussion?
It can be hard for a company to change that image. I can remember when Brymen had a reputation as a chinky Taiwanese maker of cheap meters, it took several decades to get to where they are now.
...
But then you have companies like Uni-T that have a reputation for changing and omitting parts in models on a whim.
...
I prefer to rely on independent testing and certification reports which despite all their flaws, are an objective criteria.
A review of any testing equipment that emphasizes subjective criteria is, in my opinion, a poor review - and that's what you mostly find on YouTube and social media in general.
You seem to have such contempt for anything made in China that you wrote off the UNI-T UT125C right off the bat, even though I have linked to its certification by Intertek. Then you dismissed the Intertek Shenzhen "branch"
I guess there is no end to your arrogance.
That's anecdotal, and even though it matters for a company's reputation or "vibes", objectively you would have to comparatively test to see how it affects the product's performance or safety.
But what I was talking about (and maybe bdunham7 also) is just the voltage spike itself without mains connected. And if the rise time is the same, the peak voltage is the same and the energy as well, than the short circuit current waveform during that small spike can not be that different.
There are already standards for this, so if you were going to rig something up, I'd start there.
A few years back, someone was selling off a pallet of test equipment for AC line testing. Looked like a lab had closed and they were selling off the assets. If I were going to toe dip into this area, I would try and find another deal like this.
A few years back, someone was selling off a pallet of test equipment for AC line testing. Looked like a lab had closed and they were selling off the assets. If I were going to toe dip into this area, I would try and find another deal like this.
If I wanted a YouTube channel to compete with ElectroBOOM, that would be the way to go! Buy cheap crap on Amazon and blow it up, all with big, official looking equipment.
Just a note: the UNI-T UT61E+ that Joe is testing these days is not independently certified. On the other hand, the UT161E, which externally seems identical, is certified by Intertek (from the manual: "Conforms to UL STD 61010-1, 61010-030, 61010-2-033, Certified to CSA STD C22.2 No. 61010-1, 61010-030, 61010-2-033.")
The cost of these two DMMs, including VAT and shipping to France:
- UT61E+: 73€ shipped from China (2 to 3 weeks).
- UT161E: 75€ shipped from Spain (3 to 7 days).
Personally I would rather pay an extra €2 and get the certified UT161E.
But what I was talking about (and maybe bdunham7 also) is just the voltage spike itself without mains connected. And if the rise time is the same, the peak voltage is the same and the energy as well, than the short circuit current waveform during that small spike can not be that different.
Just to be clear, what I was referring to would be something completely different, and a diagnostic or analytical tool not a test. I don't have the time or inclination to pursue it at the moment, so I'll just point out that the whole situation with spikes and energy isn't that simple. For example, it is entirely possible for a surge to 'get through' and damage a microprocessor without ever causing any arcing or even clamping in a protective circuit, so damage to equipment is not perfectly correlated to potential for arc or fire hazards. There are already standards for this, so if you were going to rig something up, I'd start there. One issue that you'd have to consider is that an AC mains connected device is in a low-impedance circuit and you can't really have low energy, low impedance and high voltage--so something has to give.
A few years back, someone was selling off a pallet of test equipment for AC line testing. Looked like a lab had closed and they were selling off the assets. If I were going to toe dip into this area, I would try and find another deal like this.
If I wanted a YouTube channel to compete with ElectroBOOM, that would be the way to go! Buy cheap crap on Amazon and blow it up, all with big, official looking equipment.
Especialy the low energy spikes will be hard to find any info about, because they don't cause imediate failure so it would be difficult to asess what would be the most common but already harmful energy and voltage level.But I think something well within Joes generators range.