16.2 Multifunction meters and similar equipment
Multifunction meters and similar equipment shall not cause a HAZARD in any possible combination
of RATED input voltages, and settings of function and range controls. Possible HAZARDS include
electric shock, fire, arcing and explosion.
Conformity is checked by the following test.The maximum RATED voltage specified for any function is applied to each pair of TERMINALS in
turn, in every combination of function and range controls. The test source connected to the
equipment measuring TERMINALS during this test is limited to 3.6 kVA for measurement category I
or measurement category II. For measurement category III or measurement category IV, the test
circuit has to be capable of delivering 30 kVA.
During and after the tests, no HAZARD shall arise.
Multifunction meters and similar equipment are to be tested by changing the Function/Range Selector to all
possible settings while connected to the maximum rated source.”
NOTE If test probes are provided with the equipment being tested then they are to be used for the test.
Compliance is checked by testing to verify no hazard occurs when switching selector settings.
What I was referring to is this part that I have gleaned from other posts. Remember that I am only going on the parts that I have seen and they might be out of context.Quote16.2 Multifunction meters and similar equipment
Multifunction meters and similar equipment shall not cause a HAZARD in any possible combination
of RATED input voltages, and settings of function and range controls. Possible HAZARDS include
electric shock, fire, arcing and explosion.
Conformity is checked by the following test.The maximum RATED voltage specified for any function is applied to each pair of TERMINALS in
turn, in every combination of function and range controls. The test source connected to the
equipment measuring TERMINALS during this test is limited to 3.6 kVA for measurement category I
or measurement category II. For measurement category III or measurement category IV, the test
circuit has to be capable of delivering 30 kVA.
During and after the tests, no HAZARD shall arise.
Multifunction meters and similar equipment are to be tested by changing the Function/Range Selector to all
possible settings while connected to the maximum rated source.”
NOTE If test probes are provided with the equipment being tested then they are to be used for the test.
Compliance is checked by testing to verify no hazard occurs when switching selector settings.
QuoteTo be clear, I don't want them tested to ANY standard. You, more than anybody, should get what I'm saying.Never assume I understand anything.QuoteI don't want to test them to a standard, but section 101.3 of 61010-2-033 (attached at the end) would serve as a decent test to base the testing off of.
QuoteI don't want to test them to a standard, but section 101.3 of 61010-2-033 (attached at the end) would serve as a decent test to base the testing off of. This section talks of putting the highest voltage the meter can test on the mains, on putting that on every jack, and every switch position. It does not require the meter to survive, just not become a hazard.
You did not include everything. The way I understand it, the DUT must survive. But again, I bet we would get different answers from the manufactures as well. No big deal. See below...Quote101.3.1 General
Conformity is checked by inspection, evaluation of the design of the equipment, and as
specified in 101.3.2 to 101.3.3, as applicable.
101.3.2 Protection by a certified overcurrent protection device
During and after the test, no damage to the equipment shall occur.
101.3.3 Protection by uncertified current limitation devices or by impedances
During and after the test, no HAZARD shall arise, nor shall there be any evidence of fire,
arcing, explosion, or damage to impedance limitation devices or any component intended to
provide protection against electric shock, heat, arc or fire, including the ENCLOSURE and traces
on the printed wiring board.
No matter how this meter is protected (I am treating it as a black box) it needs to survive the test IMO.
That aside... Watch the following as I amp up the 440V capacitor dump test....Quotehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEMCrGchLxs&feature=youtu.be
Does the 3rd edition and the supplements say anything about the need to use the test leads as supplied for the tests?
You did not post all of 101.3.3, which is the section that we would be talking about, because these inputs are protected by PTC's and MOV's, and not fuses, which is what 101.3.2 seems to refer to.
and not fuses, which is what 101.3.2 seems to refer to.
If the protection device is a fuse, ...
Read all of 101.3.3. It say the protection circuit could be damaged, b
During and after the test, ... or damage to impedance limitation devices or any component intended to provide protection against electric shock,...
QuoteRead all of 101.3.3. It say the protection circuit could be damaged, bQuoteDuring and after the test, ... or damage to impedance limitation devices or any component intended to provide protection against electric shock,...
I have no idea where you would see this as allowing the protection circuit to be damaged. It is interesting how many ways a poorly written standard can be interpreted.
It is interesting how many ways a poorly written standard can be interpreted.
QuoteRead all of 101.3.3. It say the protection circuit could be damaged, bQuoteDuring and after the test, ... or damage to impedance limitation devices or any component intended to provide protection against electric shock,...
I have no idea where you would see this as allowing the protection circuit to be damaged. It is interesting how many ways a poorly written standard can be interpreted.
What about the line that stated "Any damage to a device used for current limitation shall be ignored"??
Any damage to a device used for current limitation shall be ignored if other parts of the equipment were not affected during the test.
If a device used for current limitation is damaged, it is replaced before the test is repeated.
If you have a TUV safety inspector you work with, ask them next time if some product you are working on is safe. See what sort of response you get.
But, I have asked questions about standards on numerous occasions, trying to clear things up on standards. In areas where it did not seem clear, I ask specific questions about the meaning, and I have NEVER received a straight answer back. They will pretty much just do their testing, and tell you if you pass or fail. They never clarify the standard, probably because they don't know for sure either.
What’s the secret to Fluke’s success? You only need to look at what the Fluke 101 can’t do. Fluke’s budget meter doesn’t measure current. If you ever look inside a meter, you’ll usually find two fuses, one for measuring Amps and the other for all the other functions on the scope. There’s quite a bit of engineering that goes into the current measurement of a meter, and when it goes wrong you have a bomb on your hands. Fluke engineers rather intelligently dropped current measurement from this budget meter, allowing them to save that much on their BOM.
Now if I could just find a meter I like....
I think it will be hard to get ANY company to send a meter to anyone who's intention is to try and make it blow up. Even if they are 100% confident that it meets all safety standards and quality. The tests will be continued until failure and no company wants to help show its product failing, reasonably or not.
To be clear, I have NEVER asked Fluke or Keysight to send me a meter. What I have asked them is if they would warranty their products if they failed before the Fluke 101. I also provided them the link to this forum. Only one company responded (not Fluke or Keysight).
To be clear, I have NEVER asked Fluke or Keysight to send me a meter. What I have asked them is if they would warranty their products if they failed before the Fluke 101. I also provided them the link to this forum. Only one company responded (not Fluke or Keysight).
How are you contacting these companies? By sending an email to customer service from the website? A typical customer service person wouldn't have a clue what you are talking about, and be able to respond to you.
Looks like Hackaday picked up the story.
http://hackaday.com/2015/07/04/exploding-multimeter-battle-royale/
I was fine with what they wrote until this part:QuoteWhat’s the secret to Fluke’s success? You only need to look at what the Fluke 101 can’t do. Fluke’s budget meter doesn’t measure current. If you ever look inside a meter, you’ll usually find two fuses, one for measuring Amps and the other for all the other functions on the scope. There’s quite a bit of engineering that goes into the current measurement of a meter, and when it goes wrong you have a bomb on your hands. Fluke engineers rather intelligently dropped current measurement from this budget meter, allowing them to save that much on their BOM.
Which appears to have led to more confusion. If people would have watched the videos, they would have known that no meter from the CAT III group was damaged in current mode.
So, why does the 101 hold up so well? I suspect circuit design, layout and part selection. I have not taken this 101 apart but there is a video on youtube that shows the board. Talk about an air gap. But ... as much as it kills me to say it, even more than the design, I suspect the culture within the company demands the meters meet a very high level of standards. Again, some companies I contacted felt it was fine for a meter to not be functional after the surge test, while others require their products are not damaged. The real test is going to be to get a high end meter and run it through the same tests. That meter is going to have a lot more features than the 101.
Do we pull the trigger??? After all it should at least be as robust as the 101, right?
Looks like Hackaday picked up the story.
http://hackaday.com/2015/07/04/exploding-multimeter-battle-royale/
I was fine with what they wrote until this part:QuoteWhat’s the secret to Fluke’s success? You only need to look at what the Fluke 101 can’t do. Fluke’s budget meter doesn’t measure current. If you ever look inside a meter, you’ll usually find two fuses, one for measuring Amps and the other for all the other functions on the scope. There’s quite a bit of engineering that goes into the current measurement of a meter, and when it goes wrong you have a bomb on your hands. Fluke engineers rather intelligently dropped current measurement from this budget meter, allowing them to save that much on their BOM.
Which appears to have led to more confusion. If people would have watched the videos, they would have known that no meter from the CAT III group was damaged in current mode. They would also know that I stopped testing the current mode early on because the generator was putting out enough to blow the fuses and I did not want to replace them. So all the meters were only tested using the modes that used the voltage input connections. They would also have noticed that the Klein Tools meter had even less features than the 101 and was beat out by even the AMPROBE that has far more features. The Gardner Bender meter failed in the first round of tests and where is it's current sense feature?
We can only run the tests, collect the data and post the results. If people want to slant the data, I can't fix that.
So, why does the 101 hold up so well? I suspect circuit design, layout and part selection. I have not taken this 101 apart but there is a video on youtube that shows the board. Talk about an air gap. But ... as much as it kills me to say it, even more than the design, I suspect the culture within the company demands the meters meet a very high level of standards. Again, some companies I contacted felt it was fine for a meter to not be functional after the surge test, while others require their products are not damaged. The real test is going to be to get a high end meter and run it through the same tests. That meter is going to have a lot more features than the 101.
I gave up on contacting the service groups at the main companies. If if blows I'll just return the thing and hope they warranty it. Now if I could just find a meter I like....
I think this was a conscious decision by Fluke because they knew they couldn't make a safe meter,