Has there been any update with the latest firmware regarding the maximum number of protocol decoders enabled at the same time ?
Last I heard was a maximum of two, and RX/TX serial decode counts as two decoder, so basically if you decode one UART, you are using all the decoders.
You can configure 2 protocol buses and select one of the configured buses for analysis.
Trigger and decode on four different interfaces at the same time from analog or digital channel signals.
QuoteHas there been any update with the latest firmware regarding the maximum number of protocol decoders enabled at the same time ?
Last I heard was a maximum of two, and RX/TX serial decode counts as two decoder, so basically if you decode one UART, you are using all the decoders.
Interesting you mention that. It seems I cannot decode SPI and CAN at the same time. When I activate 'decode' of SPI on Bus B1, a CAN protocol on bus B2 is disabled (?!?). It greys out both in the vertical menu, as in the bottom menu (see screenshot). I made sure they do not overlap in the input channels used (by using the MSO).
(Attachment Link)
If I do something wrong, please tell me.
But if this is indeed yet another limitation with the RTB, then this is too bad. Even my PicoScope 3405D and the much cheaper PicoScope 2000 series models can do multiple protocols at the same time with no problems. For the RTB, serial decoding is a rather expensive option, and still seems to have serious limitations in terms of usage.
Also wondering where/wether R&S provides more specific information on these limitations? I might overlook it, but the only relevant text on this in the manual I am finding is:QuoteYou can configure 2 protocol buses and select one of the configured buses for analysis.
The R&S RTx-K1, -K2, -K3, -K5, -K6, -K7 Serial Protocol Triggering and Decoding – Fact Sheet, which applies to the RTB, says:QuoteTrigger and decode on four different interfaces at the same time from analog or digital channel signals.
And does not mention any limitation (!) At the page bottom, it provides an URL for 'further information', but this is a broken link.
They do. It's called datasheet.
"Trigger and decode on four different interfaces at the same time from analog or digital channel signals."
Obviously R&S tries to get the most money possible, and there are marketing ways to do that including intentionally crippling the features of the "cheap" units. Doesn't take a PhD in marketing to understand this.
But as users we should not defend that. And there are always users who seem to do exactly that.
I don't know why, maybe to look cool, maybe to look interesting and superior, but I will never understand this type of reply.
I mean, what's next, ask to pay more for less features ?
And don't get me started on the bandwidth upgrade options costing thousands... for hardware which is already there anyway. No idea how we accept this bullsh*t.
@2N3055:QuoteThey do. It's called datasheet.
So we seem to be in agreement, that it is the datasheet that tells us what the instrument should be (at minimal) capable of.
Like I wrote before, it is stated in the datasheets that apply to the RTB-K1, RTB-K2, RTB-K3 software options (which are the specific software options for the RTB scope) thatQuote"Trigger and decode on four different interfaces at the same time from analog or digital channel signals."And this data sheet does not list any reservation, any limitation or whatever.
If the datasheet unconditionally specifies it, then we cannot wave this away as an unreasonable expectation of the buyer of the instrument!
Again (and I am now repeating myself): I find it totally legitimate that R&S differentiates between their various offerings, like the RTB, RTM, RTA. But they do need, at minimum, to comply with the datasheets they publish for specific models.
Brochures and other marketing materials are not to be trusted and are marketing bullshit mostly, designed to confuse customer and painting a rosy picture..
Waveform and pattern generator: The integrated R&S RTB-B6 waveform and pattern generator (up to 50 Mbit/s) is useful for educational purposes and for implementing prototype hardware. Apart from the common sine, square/pulse, ramp and noise waveforms, it outputs arbitrary waveforms and 4-bit signal patterns. Waveforms and patterns can be imported as CSV files or copied from oscilloscope waveforms. Before playing signals back, the user can preview them to quickly check signal correctness. Predefined patterns for e.g. I2C, SPI, UART and CAN/LIN can be used.
Dear 2N3055, thanks for the reply.QuoteBrochures and other marketing materials are not to be trusted and are marketing bullshit mostly, designed to confuse customer and painting a rosy picture..
I see what you read, but I don’t think that we, as buyers of such instrument, should too easily be willing to accept this line of reasoning, that any other document than one called a “data sheet” does not bring any obligation. Also information in documents that are called “fact sheets”, or for that matter “brochures”, should be something people could rely on, have trust in. Their language should not be factually incorrect or deceiving.
Going back to the verbatim language we were discussing in the ‘fact sheet’ document “Decoding of up to four serial buses: Trigger and decode on four different interfaces at the same time from analog or digital channel signals”. I really believe one should reasonably be able this as “if you want to decode four buses at the same time, then this software you can buy from us allows you to do this”. And not like “we mentioned four, but it may also three, or two…”. Heck, this way I would also need to accept zero as an answer! Note also this is a very specific document, only about these separate software licenses to decode buses.
If it would have read “You may be able to decode up to four different interfaces”, or “depending on your oscilloscope model or the protocol in question, you can decode up to four different interfaces at once”, then I think it would have been ok.
I have one more example. The RTB2000 Product Brochure, Version 06.000 has the following text (emphasis added):QuoteWaveform and pattern generator: The integrated R&S RTB-B6 waveform and pattern generator (up to 50 Mbit/s) is useful for educational purposes and for implementing prototype hardware. Apart from the common sine, square/pulse, ramp and noise waveforms, it outputs arbitrary waveforms and 4-bit signal patterns. Waveforms and patterns can be imported as CSV files or copied from oscilloscope waveforms. Before playing signals back, the user can preview them to quickly check signal correctness. Predefined patterns for e.g. I2C, SPI, UART and CAN/LIN can be used.
Well, in fact, you cannot import patterns as CSV files (and if I’m wrong here, someone let me know!). Is that OK?
Keysight started selling their DSOX1204 series (latest 1000 series 4ch) with all serial protocols for free, only after Siglentandthen later Rigol had them for free and nobody would buy Keysight in that range because it was too expensive. It is still more expensive compared to similar Chinese offerings, but not by factor of 3..
@2N3055: After this conversation, I see we are not that far apart, really.
In my view, there are three components to this:
1. A business component. Satisfied customers are more loyal: they come back and encourage others to buy from you as well. This should be at least one reason for an instrument maker not to make false promises or use misleading language in any of their documents.
2. An ethical/moral component. (No elaboration needed here, I hope.)
3. A legal component. While you write 'By law only datasheet (or specification sheet) is document that needs to accurately present true capabilities at the date of sale.', I would not take such a narrow interpretation for granted. One-sided commitments or statements may have a legally binding significance. Such things will certainly depend on applicable law (the country in question). Moreover, they will depend on the applicable regime - don't be surprised how many expensive measurement instruments are bought by private consumers, which in many countries enjoy specific protection or rights. While I personally do not like to resort directly to this legal component, and I rather leave interpretation to legal professionals, things may not be as negative as you think.
best regards,
Why not ?
I also observe that when lawyers or other legal professionals are mentioned in this forum or similar places, it is often in a negative connotation. I think that is regrettable. In my daily work, I have engaged often with legal professionals, in several dozen legal cases, and most often, these are constructive, professional and very hard-working individuals, and quite often, very, very intelligent. If working in a company, these people play an important role for the company to behave right, instead of wrong.
@Tautech: I see you work for a company.
QuoteHas there been any update with the latest firmware regarding the maximum number of protocol decoders enabled at the same time ?
Last I heard was a maximum of two, and RX/TX serial decode counts as two decoder, so basically if you decode one UART, you are using all the decoders.
Interesting you mention that. It seems I cannot decode SPI and CAN at the same time. When I activate 'decode' of SPI on Bus B1, a CAN protocol on bus B2 is disabled (?!?). It greys out both in the vertical menu, as in the bottom menu (see screenshot). I made sure they do not overlap in the input channels used (by using the MSO).
Since it wasn't explicitly stated if you overcame this problem: You need to set the SPI to only decode MOSI and set MISO to None in the protocol configuration, if you want to do a CAN decode on B2. Doing both MOSI and MISO on B1 is bringing you to the two decode limit.
The RTB2000 was a great 'entry level' scope 3.5 years ago. I like many others here got it at the intro price, and at the time it was a great deal (~$2200 or so fully loaded). Now the B-Market has caught up with a vengeance since the RTB2000 was first released. As much as I like the RTB2000 still, I doubt I would have still purchased it today if I was in the market for a new scope. It is still a great scope, just much harder to justify even at sale prices imho.
But seeing the reply above, not sure the R&S software is bug free....
QuoteBut seeing the reply above, not sure the R&S software is bug free....
To avoid misinterpretation: with my RTB, I certainly do not experience a lot of crashes. With earlier firmware I (very) occasionally had crashes (some of which I learned to avoid because I know what triggered them). With the current (2.300) firmware, I'm not sure I had any crashes, but its only out recently, so too early to tell for me whether they now addressed them all.
Over time, quite a few 'other' bugs were addressed in firmware updates, for which quite detailed change logs are issued. But the process has been rather long (several years to iron out several bugs), and there are some bugs that remain.
I cannot compare this to recent scopes of other brands in terms of crashes or bugs because I do not have experience with them.
(Well, I have a Tek 453, a Tek 2465A, and a trusty HAMEG HM 203-5, and hey, none of them ever crashed, but I would not take them as comparison points for this discussion ;-)))