[...] Dave a few years ago made a video on the heat loss with lead acid batteries. During charging 20% of the electricity used to charge the battery is lost as heat. When discharging there's a 20% loss to heat. So between charging and discharging one loses 40% to heat. [...]
For the third time Doug, please, where is that video? Have you got the url?Same here. AFAIK someone already debunked Doug's numbers earlier on in this thread.
To take a car 100km you'll need 1kg of hydrogen. That translates to 25 liters of liquid per 100km. 500km of range would translate to 125 liters. Say that is 150kg to round it up. An EV would need 125kWh to cover 500km which translates to a battery with a mass of over 400kg.
Ahhh, except you neglected to factor in the containment vessel required to actually hold said hydrogen in the vehicle...
This is where it becomes increasingly impractical.No, the idea behind keeping hydrogen in a liquid is that you can keep it in a regular thin walled fuel tank. OTOH Toyota already has figured out how to build a safe high pressure hydrogen tank for their Mirai (IMHO they went a little bit overboard by making it -litterally- bullet proof) so either way storing the hydrogen is solved. It all comes down to operational costs.
One would be a fool to buy batteries.
THAT is the correct/ logical/ realistic/ truthful answer.
And the only one.
We don't have such a beneficial power pricing scheme in Oz but no matter where you are in the world from what I have seen, there is NO where in the world batteries make any sense right now nor will do for the forseeable future.
The price would have to be about 1/3rd of what they are now to get in the ball park no matter what you pay for power.
Some places have batterys than others but where the batterys are cheaper the power is too canceling out any ROI advantage.
I have seen all sorts of convoluted, complicated and green washed calculations to try and prove otherwise but the equations is very simple.
At 100% utilization 100% of the time, they simply cannot save enough power for it's value to repay it's cost in a valid time frame being the lifetime of the battery. The exception maybe a DIY system using forklift packs or the like but certainly no Powerbore or similar plug and play type battery has any valid Financial benefit.
Oh yeah, we can spin doctor the argument as well and say I bought one for blackout power which,
1. is still not saving power and is a totaly different scenario, and,
2, You are a fool for paying far too much for an overpriced solution when there are far better and cheaper alternatives.
If you buy a battery to "save the environment", Well I won't nominate fitting and applicable names but lets just say you are either a product or sucker of the PC greenwashed.
I bought 3 Diesel engines this week and 2 Generator heads. All working or brand new. $300 all up. One needs a new belt, the other would need the head and the engine mounted and hooked up. Lets play devils advocate and call it $200 to make a nice Figure of $500. Where a battery lasts hours, I can run everything and lot more than a battery can till the cows come home..... in 6 months time. And I still have a spare engine.
Another reason not to use batteries is the heat loss. Dave a few years ago made a video on the heat loss with lead acid batteries. During charging 20% of the electricity used to charge the battery is lost as heat. When discharging there's a 20% loss to heat. So between charging and discharging one loses 40% to heat. That's like going to the bank and opening a savings account. For every dollar you put in the bank, the bank gives you $0.60 back. (The other $0.40 is used to heat the bank.)
No, the idea behind keeping hydrogen in a liquid is that you can keep it in a regular thin walled fuel tank. OTOH Toyota already has figured out how to build a safe high pressure hydrogen tank for their Mirai (IMHO they went a little bit overboard by making it -litterally- bullet proof) so either way storing the hydrogen is solved. It all comes down to operational costs.
The wholesale rate for electricity credits in San Diego, CA is .04162 $/kW-hr in Feb of 2019. Last summer it was .034. The peak demand rate in the summer is .6 $/kW-hr. That's between 6 and 9 pm.
I don't know how the economics works on this but it is not net metering.
[...] Dave a few years ago made a video on the heat loss with lead acid batteries. During charging 20% of the electricity used to charge the battery is lost as heat. When discharging there's a 20% loss to heat. So between charging and discharging one loses 40% to heat. [...]
For the third time Doug, please, where is that video? Have you got the url?
The wholesale rate for electricity credits in San Diego, CA is .04162 $/kW-hr in Feb of 2019. Last summer it was .034. The peak demand rate in the summer is .6 $/kW-hr. That's between 6 and 9 pm.
I don't know how the economics works on this but it is not net metering.
San Diego has net metering and your rates from what I understand is close to PG&E. You are able to sell electricity to the power company when rates are high and buy the electricty back the same day when rates are lower. Get on the “right” rate plan and there is a 400% spread between what you sell and buy electricity at.
Lithium batteries are better than 20%. But they are not 100% efficient.
[...] Dave a few years ago made a video on the heat loss with lead acid batteries. During charging 20% of the electricity used to charge the battery is lost as heat. When discharging there's a 20% loss to heat. So between charging and discharging one loses 40% to heat. [...]
For the third time Doug, please, where is that video? Have you got the url?
Turns out it is even worse than what Dave state’s in his videos. Lead Acid batteries can loose up to 50% in heat loss due to Peukert”s law.
https://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/lead-acid-battery-downsides/
Here in BC the fuel costs of a BEV are 1/7th that of the compatible ICE (given today's electricity/gasoline price), so the incentive is pretty high.
I'd like to see real world verifyable figures to support that.
I've posted it here on a couple of occasions, but here we go again; VW eGolf vs VW Golf (Canadian spec).
eGolf: 17.4kWh/100km (this matches up pretty well with my real-world from the socket numbers https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/efficiency/transportation/21363)
Golf: 8.5l/100km (automatic combined city/highway per NRC CAN reports https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/efficiency/transportation/21002)
Price of electricity: $0.0884/kWh + 5% rate rider + 5%GST = $0.0975/kWh (https://app.bchydro.com/accounts-billing/rates-energy-use/electricity-rates/residential-rates.html)
Price of gasoline: $1.379/l (https://www.gasbuddy.com/GasPrices/British%20Columbia/New%20Westminster)
100km on electricity: 17.4 * 0.0975 = $1.70
100km on gasoline: 8.5 * 1.379 = $11.72
6.9x times more expensive on gasoline
100km on electricity: 17.4 * 0.0975 = $1.70
100km on gasoline: 8.5 * 1.379 = $11.72
6.9x times more expensive on gasoline
So, I'll stick to my 1/7th number (as gasoline has ranged from 1.269 to 1.559 in the last 6 months)
I've posted it here on a couple of occasions, but here we go again; VW eGolf vs VW Golf (Canadian spec).
eGolf: 17.4kWh/100km (this matches up pretty well with my real-world from the socket numbers https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/efficiency/transportation/21363)
Golf: 8.5l/100km (automatic combined city/highway per NRC CAN reports https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/efficiency/transportation/21002)
Price of electricity: $0.0884/kWh + 5% rate rider + 5%GST = $0.0975/kWh (https://app.bchydro.com/accounts-billing/rates-energy-use/electricity-rates/residential-rates.html)
Price of gasoline: $1.379/l (https://www.gasbuddy.com/GasPrices/British%20Columbia/New%20Westminster)
100km on electricity: 17.4 * 0.0975 = $1.70
100km on gasoline: 8.5 * 1.379 = $11.72
6.9x times more expensive on gasoline
What are the numbers once you just look at the energy cost and remove all the road taxes that are currently only applied to gasoline vehicles and are not yet charged on electric vehicles?
Wow, $1.379 in B.C. right now. Oof... It's $0.879 here in Calgary.
100km on electricity: 17.4 * 0.0975 = $1.70
100km on gasoline: 8.5 * 1.379 = $11.72
6.9x times more expensive on gasoline
So, I'll stick to my 1/7th number (as gasoline has ranged from 1.269 to 1.559 in the last 6 months)
I can provide a comparison from germany. I drive my EV now since more than a year, my daily commute is 140km (87miles). The sum over the year is 30.000km (18.600 miles).
Hyundai Ioniq: 14kWh/100 * 0,25€ * 30.000km = 1050€
Mercedes C-Class (diesel): 7L/100 * 1,35€ * 30.000km = 2835€
Diesel fuel is 2,7x times more expensive.
Other costs also count: No tax for the electric car (240€ a year). Maintenance and service costs is 600€ less for the EV.
Over the year the EV is 2625€ cheaper (2977 USD or 3910 CAD).
That is a difference of 218€ a month (247 USD or 325 CAD)
I suspect the Ioniq number is a bit low (if that's what the car reports, there's probably another 2kWh/100km lost in charging), but still it shows that it can work in a large European country.
100km on electricity: 17.4 * 0.0975 = $1.70
100km on gasoline: 8.5 * 1.379 = $11.72
6.9x times more expensive on gasoline
So, I'll stick to my 1/7th number (as gasoline has ranged from 1.269 to 1.559 in the last 6 months)I can provide a comparison from germany. I drive my EV now since more than a year, my daily commute is 140km (87miles). The sum over the year is 30.000km (18.600 miles).
Hyundai Ioniq: 14kWh/100 * 0,25€ * 30.000km = 1050€
Mercedes C-Class (diesel): 7L/100 * 1,35€ * 30.000km = 2835€
Diesel fuel is 2,7x times more expensive.
Other costs also count: No tax for the electric car (240€ a year). Maintenance and service costs is 600€ less for the EV.
Over the year the EV is 2625€ cheaper (2977 USD or 3910 CAD).
That is a difference of 218€ a month (247 USD or 325 CAD)
I'm not quite sure you are actually saving money compared to buying an efficient ICE car if you look at the full picture.
The wholesale rate for electricity credits in San Diego, CA is .04162 $/kW-hr in Feb of 2019. Last summer it was .034. The peak demand rate in the summer is .6 $/kW-hr. That's between 6 and 9 pm.
I don't know how the economics works on this but it is not net metering.
San Diego has net metering and your rates from what I understand is close to PG&E. You are able to sell electricity to the power company when rates are high and buy the electricty back the same day when rates are lower. Get on the “right” rate plan and there is a 400% spread between what you sell and buy electricity at.
That's not true. For some reason the links I posted did not show up? This link is from SDGE with a list of the credit you get for excess energy production. This varies with time so this is historical but includes this month.
https://www.sdge.com/residential/savings-center/solar-power-renewable-energy/net-energy-metering/billing-information/excess-generation
Andy
Store solar energy in the day and then when you need it on peak demand use the batteries. People do this all the time.
Why are you insulting me?
This stuff is commercially available.
Turns out it is even worse than what Dave state’s in his videos. Lead Acid batteries can loose up to 50% in heat loss due to Peukert”s law.
I've posted it here on a couple of occasions, but here we go again; VW eGolf vs VW Golf (Canadian spec).
eGolf: 17.4kWh/100km (this matches up pretty well with my real-world from the socket numbers https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/efficiency/transportation/21363)
Golf: 8.5l/100km (automatic combined city/highway per NRC CAN reports https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/efficiency/transportation/21002)
5) You picked a gas guzziling version of the car. -- I picked the equivalent. Diesel versions are not available in North America
6) You're not comparing apples to apples -- Don't know how much closer you can get comparing a gasoline vs the electric version of basically the same car.
The quiet and smoothness were just added benefits I hadn't considered when I bought it,