Do you pay a PG&E bill in San Francisco? I don't think so. Just look at PG&E's electrial rates.
https://www.pge.com/tariffs/electric.shtml Specialy take a look a the TOU EV-A and EV-B rates and tell me how I'm not paying $0.45 kWhr? Holly shit you are right, I was wrong. PG&E raised rates. It's not longer $0.85 kWhr it's on $0.862 kWhr.
What the hell are you smoking? Picture below is directly from the spreadsheet in your link and shows the most current average rates to be either $0.13 or $0.23 per kWh.
And according to this database the average residential electricity price in San Francisco is $0.15/kWh.
And that same website shows that in the largest population center of California, Los Angeles, the average rate is only $0.13/kWh.
And BTW -any price sensitive EV owner would be charging their EV primarily during the lowest (off peak) rate hours.
\We arn't talking about the small number of custoemrs who receive special rates, we have been disucssing the vast majority of cutomers who don't receive any discounts and pay the full rates.
(Edit- Here's a website with June 2018 data. Prices have gone up some - USA ave is now $0.13/lkWh. The point remains the same.)
FYI
In San Diego Calif during Mar 2018 (stayed under baseline - used 332 KW) the electricity rate was $0.15406 which is near the chart BUT I paid $0.24446 KW after a half dozen add on charges.
But last month when I used the AC for 10 hours and went over baseline my total charge was $045 KW
So my rate is .24 to .45
Thanks for the data point. Were the add on charges use dependent?
Base service charges are not relevant since they will be there regardless of whether you have an EV or not.
TOU charges of course are designed to charge more at times of heavy use - typically AC use hours. As I stated, any EV owner will avoid charging during those hours unless they don't care about price.
I know a couple of California EV owners who purposely set up their charging to only occur during the lowest rate hours.
I posted the spreadsheet you provided. It clearly shows the average rates for PGE which is nothing close to what you have claimed. That is not only showing special rates.
Nowhere does it show anything close the the rates you claimed.
Are you purposely being deceitful?
I posted the spreadsheet you provided. It clearly shows the average rates for PGE which is nothing close to what you have claimed. That is not only showing special rates.
Nowhere does it show anything close the the rates you claimed.
Are you purposely being deceitful?
No, you are. Look at cells A4 and B4. Any dummy can see these are the special rate plans that someone who is dying is on. Yes the rest of us are dying to get on those rate plans but we aren't dying so we can't get on them.
Can we focus our discussin on the rate plans the vast majority of us pay, and not the special medial rate plans for customers who are dying?
[...] it's probably closer to 4 miles/hr on a 1300W charge rate. Certainly the math would imply [...] 14.2 kWh/100km, call it 17 kWh after charging loss [...]
But do these prices include transportation / distribution costs and taxes? 7ct per kWh seems awfully low for an all inclusive price. Over here I pay around 7 eurocents per kWh but that excludes distribution costs and taxes.Of course there will be some taxes - but they are trivially low compared to the kWh price in all cases I'm aware of. For my current utility - they are $0.0058/kWh.
There will always be a usage independent basic service charge as well. (for me it's $29/month) - but of course that charge is irrelevant since it will be there even if I use no electricity.
Just as George has cherry picked (or made up) a number. This seems to be a common theme with the anti-EV ers. Cherry pick (or make up) a number to present a worse case comparison, meanwhile ignoring factual and more widely applicable data presented by others.
Just as George has cherry picked (or made up) a number. This seems to be a common theme with the anti-EV ers. Cherry pick (or make up) a number to present a worse case comparison, meanwhile ignoring factual and more widely applicable data presented by others.
It's not a made up number, I know what I pay. And to present a worst case comparison I would have chosen the carrefour gazole not the V-Power.
But do these prices include transportation / distribution costs and taxes? 7ct per kWh seems awfully low for an all inclusive price. Over here I pay around 7 eurocents per kWh but that excludes distribution costs and taxes.Of course there will be some taxes - but they are trivially low compared to the kWh price in all cases I'm aware of. For my current utility - they are $0.0058/kWh.
There will always be a usage independent basic service charge as well. (for me it's $29/month) - but of course that charge is irrelevant since it will be there even if I use no electricity.I wouldn't call it irrelevant because it does add to the price per kWh number. No creative book keeping . I'm still interested in what people actually pay per kWh. Electricity prices without taking all the costs (fixed and variable) into account are not usefull to make a good comparison between the actual costs. For my personal situation EV versus ICE is equal when it comes to costs per km if I had to choose between buying an EV or and efficient ICE car.
I posted the spreadsheet you provided. It clearly shows the average rates for PGE which is nothing close to what you have claimed. That is not only showing special rates.
Nowhere does it show anything close the the rates you claimed.
Are you purposely being deceitful?
No, you are. Look at cells A4 and B4. Any dummy can see these are the special rate plans that someone who is dying is on. Yes the rest of us are dying to get on those rate plans but we aren't dying so we can't get on them.
Can we focus our discussin on the rate plans the vast majority of us pay, and not the special medial rate plans for customers who are dying?
Alright Doug. Now I can not conclude anything other than your are a straight up dishonest troll.
That spreadsheet clearly shows that the average normal rate (row A) is $0.23/kWh not the $0.45 or $0.86/kWh you claimed. Anyone can look for themselves.
You claimed you pay $0.45/kWh
You claimed somewhere in CA the rate is $0.86/hr
Both claims could be true but we simply don't know since you have provided no evidence of that.
It would not surprise me if some utility somewhere charges that much for high demand TOU hours. It really is irrelevant though since anyone living in such an area would be silly to charge their EV during those hours.
What you have done is provide a link to the PGE website with their current average rates of either $0.13 (CARE qualifying customers) or $0.23 per kWh (normal customers).
(BTW - the CARE program is not for people "who are dying" - it is for general low income households)
This is the same old pattern with you across multiple threads since you joined this forum. Make claims without any evidence to support them, then change the subject when presented with actual facts.
I've got to go clean my roof gutters now. Feel free to post some actual verifiable data to support your claims. I'll have a look later.
OK - then cherry picked. As pointed out by Boffin, average electricity rates in Poland are closer to 0.15 Euro/kWh, not 0.20. (for example see here) and overnight rates, when EVs would mostly be charged, are likely much less.
But do these prices include transportation / distribution costs and taxes? 7ct per kWh seems awfully low for an all inclusive price. Over here I pay around 7 eurocents per kWh but that excludes distribution costs and taxes.Of course there will be some taxes - but they are trivially low compared to the kWh price in all cases I'm aware of. For my current utility - they are $0.0058/kWh.
There will always be a usage independent basic service charge as well. (for me it's $29/month) - but of course that charge is irrelevant since it will be there even if I use no electricity.I wouldn't call it irrelevant because it does add to the price per kWh number. No creative book keeping . I'm still interested in what people actually pay per kWh. Electricity prices without taking all the costs (fixed and variable) into account are not usefull to make a good comparison between the actual costs. For my personal situation EV versus ICE is equal when it comes to costs per km if I had to choose between buying an EV or and efficient ICE car.
Please explain how a fixed electricity connection cost is relevant to evaluating the price to fuel an EV. That charge would be there regardless of whether one owns an EV or not.
Please explain how a fixed electricity connection cost is relevant to evaluating the price to fuel an EV. That charge would be there regardless of whether one owns an EV or not.
Still I'm not sure the numbers quoted for the Tesla are right. AFAIK the Tesla needs about 250Wh per km from the 'socket on the wall'. With $0.45 per kWh that brings the cost to $0,11 per km. With $3.95 per gallon and an mileage of (let's stay conservative) 35MPG = 56kmPG you get a cost of $0.07 per km. With an efficient ICE car in the 45MPG range the fuel costs go down to little over $0.05 per km.
There sure is a large variation in the cost electricity and gas around the world. Even if the guy’s math is +/- 10% or even 20% he’s showing the energy cost for an EV and ICE are comparable. And if electricity coasts continue to rise faster than gas, electric cars will be more expensive to power. Now to be fair he’s not factoring on oil changes. But then again for the past 20 years I change the oil in my cars about once every 2 years or every 20,000 miles. So, for my figures add in another $20 per year on the ICE for oil changes.
...This is a cherry picked number. Just as George has cherry picked (or made up) a number. This seems to be a common theme with the anti-EV ers. Cherry pick (or make up) a number to present a worse case comparison, meanwhile ignoring factual and more widely applicable data presented by others.
Never said $0.45 is the average.
So what do you do if you need say drive to school to pick-up the kids but need to charge the battery when rates are at $0.45? Leave the kids at school?
Be real
[...] Just as it would be disingenuous to use the biggest gas guzzling SUVs as a point of comparison. [...] The exact same ICE only minivan gets EPA estimated 19 MPG for city driving. [...]
[...] Just as it would be disingenuous to use the biggest gas guzzling SUVs as a point of comparison. [...] The exact same ICE only minivan gets EPA estimated 19 MPG for city driving. [...]
19 MPG isn't a gas guzzler? GOD BLESS THE USA LOL
...This is a cherry picked number. Just as George has cherry picked (or made up) a number. This seems to be a common theme with the anti-EV ers. Cherry pick (or make up) a number to present a worse case comparison, meanwhile ignoring factual and more widely applicable data presented by others.
They love cherry-picking numbers.
They'll try and compare a Tesla Model 3 with a Fiat Panda, and claim they're equivalent. I've had one of them in this thread say that comparing a VW Electric Golf to a VW Gasoline Golf isn't a reasonable comparison.
...This is a cherry picked number. Just as George has cherry picked (or made up) a number. This seems to be a common theme with the anti-EV ers. Cherry pick (or make up) a number to present a worse case comparison, meanwhile ignoring factual and more widely applicable data presented by others.
They love cherry-picking numbers.
They'll try and compare a Tesla Model 3 with a Fiat Panda, and claim they're equivalent. I've had one of them in this thread say that comparing a VW Electric Golf to a VW Gasoline Golf isn't a reasonable comparison.Yes. It's remarkable that they think others can't see their transparent bullshit.
4.7 mpkWh is 213 Wh per mile, scaled for input power is 265 Wh per mile.
That gives me £0.039 per mile. We can argue endlessly as to whether we should include the battery lease as a per mile charge (as Renault bill it) or add it to the purchase price, but if we do add it in then we get to £0.119 per mile.
The car it replaced was a 2010 Chevrolet Spark. Real-world we got around 320 miles to a tank with perhaps 5 L left in the 35 L tank, I pretty much always put 30 L in anyway. My local petrol stations are currently around £1.35 /L for unleaded so those 30 L would cost £40.50, so £0.127 per mile. The Zoe just about breaks even if you include the battery lease.
But the big factor that gets barely mentioned is that EVs are heavily subsidised - not only because of government subsidy for the purchase price but also the lack of duty on the fuel. In the UK 61% of the retail price of petrol and diesel is tax compared to 5% for electricity. That can't remain the case when EVs get more popular (as the government can't afford the loss of so much revenue) so road pricing or similar will have to introduced at some point to ensure EV owners pay their fair share of maintaining the road network, emergency services etc.
That may change the balance somewhat but it could (very likely) be offset by higher charges on ICE vehicles to encourage switching to EVs. I'm not convinced they can go very on this route as doing so may be politically difficult because many people, especially the poorer, won't have the choice to switch to an EV for various reasons including lack of home recharging facilities.