Those liquid metal batteries do sound crazy, but it seems like they have very interesting characteristics.
The technology isn't new, it seems. They improved them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium%E2%80%93sulfur_battery
I wonder if they can be expected to be used in cars. I suppose that molten metal batteries wouldn't like to be shaken, and just how much heat do the batteries radiate? I suppose that they need to be very well thermally isolated, or you would be losing energy like crazy. Also, i don't want to be anywhere near a molten sodium battery, if the case gets broken.
For stationary storage, they look very good, however.
Those liquid metal batteries do sound crazy, but it seems like they have very interesting characteristics.
The technology isn't new, it seems. They improved them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium%E2%80%93sulfur_battery
I wonder if they can be expected to be used in cars. I suppose that molten metal batteries wouldn't like to be shaken, and just how much heat do the batteries radiate? I suppose that they need to be very well thermally isolated, or you would be losing energy like crazy. Also, i don't want to be anywhere near a molten sodium battery, if the case gets broken.
For stationary storage, they look very good, however.
He's not using sodium, that would be explosivly crazy. He said the TSA will allow his batteries to be taken on a plane.
He's not using sodium, that would be explosivly crazy. He said the TSA will allow his batteries to be taken on a plane.If you would have listened more carefully: when the battery is fully cooled down and the metals inside solid. I don't know what this would mean for the state of charge.
Come to think of it: the thermal management of these batteries will be a real nightmare. It seems the charge / discharge efficiency is around 70%. Say this is equally divided between charging & discharging. If you are storing 1MW of electricity in the battery you'll end up with 150kW of heat that will need to be taken away from the battery and dumped into the air. However when the battery is stationary this heat production stops and heat needs to be added to keep the battery at the operational temperature. Something tells me that this will require an intricate heating/cooling system. Just using thermal insulation for the cells won't be enough because this will greatly reduce that charge & discharge rates. All in all this technology is years away from being ready for actual deployment.
He's not using sodium, that would be explosivly crazy. He said the TSA will allow his batteries to be taken on a plane.If you would have listened more carefully: when the battery is fully cooled down and the metals inside solid. I don't know what this would mean for the state of charge.
Come to think of it: the thermal management of these batteries will be a real nightmare. It seems the charge / discharge efficiency is around 70%. Say this is equally divided between charging & discharging. If you are storing 1MW of electricity in the battery you'll end up with 150kW of heat that will need to be taken away from the battery and dumped into the air. However when the battery is stationary this heat production stops and heat needs to be added to keep the battery at the operational temperature. Something tells me that this will require an intricate heating/cooling system. Just using thermal insulation for the cells won't be enough because this will greatly reduce that charge & discharge rates. All in all this technology is years away from being ready for actual deployment.He talked about the heat in the video. As I recall he said it was warm, but not HOT! Once cool it is a solid and there is no danger. There was some joke about what if it get's shot and he said it will leak out and become a solid.
Someone a few posts back said this was bullshit. And something about all our cars having platinum and our phones having gold. Guess he missed the part at (5:01) where he show the abundance of atoms on our planet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth's_crust#/media/File:Elemental_abundances.svg
All the gold tha's ever been mined is a 62 foot or 18 m cube or two olympic size pools. When it comes to platinum is about 5 times less or about the size of a living room.
He's not using sodium, that would be explosivly crazy. He said the TSA will allow his batteries to be taken on a plane.If you would have listened more carefully: when the battery is fully cooled down and the metals inside solid. I don't know what this would mean for the state of charge.
Come to think of it: the thermal management of these batteries will be a real nightmare. It seems the charge / discharge efficiency is around 70%. Say this is equally divided between charging & discharging. If you are storing 1MW of electricity in the battery you'll end up with 150kW of heat that will need to be taken away from the battery and dumped into the air. However when the battery is stationary this heat production stops and heat needs to be added to keep the battery at the operational temperature. Something tells me that this will require an intricate heating/cooling system. Just using thermal insulation for the cells won't be enough because this will greatly reduce that charge & discharge rates. All in all this technology is years away from being ready for actual deployment.He talked about the heat in the video. As I recall he said it was warm, but not HOT! Once cool it is a solid and there is no danger. There was some joke about what if it get's shot and he said it will leak out and become a solid.Why do I even bother. You are not reading anything I write -again-QuoteSomeone a few posts back said this was bullshit. And something about all our cars having platinum and our phones having gold. Guess he missed the part at (5:01) where he show the abundance of atoms on our planet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth's_crust#/media/File:Elemental_abundances.svg
All the gold that's ever been mined is a 62 foot or 18 m cube or two Olympic size pools. When it comes to platinum is about 5 times less or about the size of a living room.And still that doesn't prevent platinum to be used for something else then jewelry so the statement of the 'professor' is completely false. I'd call it a lie. And you are not even reading the graph you linked to. It shows platinum and gold are about as equally abundant. If less platinum was mined until now it means there is more left to mine.
Just understand this: the guy in the video is trying to sell his idea and he isn't afraid of telling lies.
Read the article I linked to about how his company is about to go under.
You are right I do not understand you. Why would converting electricity to hydrogen may make more sense?
You are right I do not understand you. Why would converting electricity to hydrogen may make more sense?Costs and time needed to implement. A hydrogen tank is something you can order off-the-shelve. The batteries are years away from being deployable. I see several potential issues that need to be solved AFTER they have a working cell. Read my text about the thermal management.
You are right I do not understand you. Why would converting electricity to hydrogen may make more sense?Costs and time needed to implement. A hydrogen tank is something you can order off-the-shelve. The batteries are years away from being deployable. I see several potential issues that need to be solved AFTER they have a working cell. Read my text about the thermal management.
I continue not to understand you. Yes one can buy a hydrogen tank, but what are you going to put in it?
What do you mean molten salt batteries are years away, your information is abut 80 years out of date. They were originally developed for V-1 and V-2 rockets Germany was sending over to the England and in nuclear weapons.
I read your text about thermal management. Did you listen and understand what the professor said about the thermal characteristics of his design?
We don't know if what the professor is proposing is going to be a commercial success or not. But you do have to admit it looks feasible and promising. This guy is an MIT professor so can we agree he's not stupid? Bill Gates is no dummy either. Gates like this guy are trying to solve some of the worlds issues before they are no longer with us.
For hydrogen storage you need a lot more than just the tank, you need to generate hydrogen somehow, you need to compress it and cool it (might be possible to use this heat), you then need to convert it back to electricity when you need it. When you calculate TCO you need to take into consideration the cost and lifetime of all those components as well. The tank is going to be the cheapest part.
Yes, inverters and maybe some heaters/fans*, but that isn't difficult or particularly expensive compared to the complex mechanical systems you'd need for hydrogen. It's really unfair to only make a comparison between batteries and a hydrogen tank. The expensive parts will be converting electricity into hydrogen and vice versa and the compressors, not the tank.
*Looking at a picture of a NGK NAS battery installation from before it looks like thermal regulation is integrated in the battery assemblies.
Yes, inverters and maybe some heaters/fans*, but that isn't difficult or particularly expensive compared to the complex mechanical systems you'd need for hydrogen. It's really unfair to only make a comparison between batteries and a hydrogen tank. The expensive parts will be converting electricity into hydrogen and vice versa and the compressors, not the tank.
*Looking at a picture of a NGK NAS battery installation from before it looks like thermal regulation is integrated in the battery assemblies.Still the costs of the materials for the batteries alone will be huge. Look at the weight of the NAS batteries from the NGK website. I see numbers like 32 tonnes, 82 tonnes.. The materials may be cheap but if you need a lot of it, it still becomes expensive. Not just the materials but also the processing to turn them into batteries. Batteries just don't scale.
But for kicks say we put the price for the entire electric to liquid hydrogen gas system with a 5kg tank at $10000 (mass produced) for a 15 year life span. The storage cost per kWh is 2 cents. Still 4 times cheaper than the battery solution.
Yes, inverters and maybe some heaters/fans*, but that isn't difficult or particularly expensive compared to the complex mechanical systems you'd need for hydrogen. It's really unfair to only make a comparison between batteries and a hydrogen tank. The expensive parts will be converting electricity into hydrogen and vice versa and the compressors, not the tank.
*Looking at a picture of a NGK NAS battery installation from before it looks like thermal regulation is integrated in the battery assemblies.Still the costs of the materials for the batteries alone will be huge. Look at the weight of the NAS batteries from the NGK website. I see numbers like 32 tonnes, 82 tonnes.. The materials may be cheap but if you need a lot of it, it still becomes expensive. Not just the materials but also the processing to turn them into batteries. Batteries just don't scale.
But for kicks say we put the price for the entire electric to liquid hydrogen gas system with a 5kg tank at $10000 (mass produced) for a 15 year life span. The storage cost per kWh is 2 cents. Still 4 times cheaper than the battery solution.
You are correct but when you factor in the inefficiency of hydrogen its far more than the four times you are saving. No consumer would ever go for it.
Yes, inverters and maybe some heaters/fans*, but that isn't difficult or particularly expensive compared to the complex mechanical systems you'd need for hydrogen. It's really unfair to only make a comparison between batteries and a hydrogen tank. The expensive parts will be converting electricity into hydrogen and vice versa and the compressors, not the tank.
*Looking at a picture of a NGK NAS battery installation from before it looks like thermal regulation is integrated in the battery assemblies.Still the costs of the materials for the batteries alone will be huge. Look at the weight of the NAS batteries from the NGK website. I see numbers like 32 tonnes, 82 tonnes.. The materials may be cheap but if you need a lot of it, it still becomes expensive. Not just the materials but also the processing to turn them into batteries. Batteries just don't scale.
But for kicks say we put the price for the entire electric to liquid hydrogen gas system with a 5kg tank at $10000 (mass produced) for a 15 year life span. The storage cost per kWh is 2 cents. Still 4 times cheaper than the battery solution.
You are correct but when you factor in the inefficiency of hydrogen its far more than the four times you are saving. No consumer would ever go for it.I have already factored in the efficiency of hydrogen in my calculations. What kills batteries (in an economic sense) is the massive amount of materials needed and their short lifespan.
Care to tell us why your calculations do not agree with the ones in the video?
But for kicks say we put the price for the entire electric to liquid hydrogen gas system with a 5kg tank at $10000 (mass produced) for a 15 year life span. The storage cost per kWh is 2 cents. Still 4 times cheaper than the battery solution.
Up until 100 years ago, electric cars were more popular than internal-combustion engine powered cars and were poised to become the standard method of transportation. Most used NiFe or NiCd batteries.And how did they control the power output smooth enough without losing too much power in the switch while driving (therefore potentially heating it up and burning, next to the loss of energy)? Not to mention charging those batteries.
The switches needed for that got available with the semiconductors used and available as they are today, the whole system relying on an electrical grid that simply did not exist back then. Those are very technical reasons. The first gas suppliers were indeed pharmacies, as they sold the benzine in bottles and had the necessary logistics infrastructure. That gave the whole idea of a gasoline car the necessary initial push - in Germany back in the days. Where is that chummy-chum?
I mean, there have been quite counter-intuitive decisions, like removing trolley busses from cities and now selling them as solution again or lamenting about the pollution caused by exhaust gasses inside cities. Yet personal transport and public transport is a different thing.
According to the video i posted, the electricity cost per km for a tesla model 3 is 2 to 2.4 cents, while they hydrogen cost per km for the toyota mirai is 17.7 cents. The tesla model 3 long-range comes with a battery warranty of 8 years or 120000 miles (193000 km), so, for that many miles, the electricity cost is $4632 (at 2.4 cents/km), while the hydrogen cost would be $34161. A difference of $29529.
So, about cost, that doesn't looks good for the mirai. But the mirai has the convenience of a fast fillup. If there where enough stations for the trip, of course.