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As has been stated several times EVs or at least the Volt has 2 banks of batteries. One for the power train and another for the creature comforts. In a Volt one can have a fully charged power train battery bank and not be able to power-on the car if the other battery bank is dead. They are completely independent of each other.
Just how much energy do you think it takes to pwoer an EV when stopped in traffic? All that's being powered during daylight hours are the computers, one display and in my case the sound system. Is that even 100 watts? (I don't know, but it's not a lot.) Now compare that to an ICE. How much heat is being generated by the running enging sitting in traffic? Again IDK for sure, but I'm guessing 2,000 - 5,000 watts? I'm thinking probably more.
I know when I park my ICE car in the garage the entire garage heats up. WHen I park my EV there's no increase in temperature.
Use some critical thinking skills. ICE cars when running generate a tremedous amout of heat. Aren't ICE only 20% or less efficient?
How efficient is an electric motor? Not eactly sure but aren't they 75% or more efficent? And then EVs have regenitive breaking, so KE gets coverneted back to PE when slowing down. To slow an ICE down only way to do it is to generate more heat with the breaking system which decreased range.
Does that pass your BS test?
As has been stated several times EVs or at least the Volt has 2 banks of batteries. One for the power train and another for the creature comforts. In a Volt one can have a fully charged power train battery bank and not be able to power-on the car if the other battery bank is dead. They are completely independent of each other.
Does that pass your BS test?I think you really need to read about how cars actually work. What you wrote doesn't make any sense and it is also wrong. The Volt can still drive if the secondary (12V) battery is dead which means that the primary electronics and mandatory stuff like lights are powered from the drive train battery. Ergo it will use power when it is sitting idle while being switched on. There is no way around that. Besides that the battery management electronics will slowly but steadily drain the battery as well. It will take long but it will happen.
Dude did you not read the two other posts? NO! You are wrong.
Lights, computers, navigation system, entertainment system, seat heating, phone charging are NOT Let me say that again, NOT powered by the drive train batteries.So we have two options.
1) The "creature comfort battery" has a very large capacity and can power AC, heating, vehicle electronics (a couple of hundred watts in modern vehicles) while standing still in a traffic jam for weeks.
2) The "creature comfort battery" is charged from the "drive train battery" and the range is reduced even if standing still in a traffic jam.
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?5409-Auxillary-BatteryQuoteDuring operation, the 12 Volt battery's voltage is maintained by the "accessory power module" (APM) whenever the Volt is "ON", and maintained by the main battery charger assembly (On-Board Charging Module) when the Volt is plugged in and charging is ACTIVE (steady green LED). The APM is a DC to DC converter that takes high voltage (380V?) from the Volt's traction battery and converts it to ~13.0-15.5 Volts in order to maintain the low voltage accessory loads (including the Volt's computers and modules). It also charges the 12V system's battery, also know as an "absorbant glass mat" (AGM) battery. The 12V battery's voltage is maintained when the car is running or charging (by the APM or charger, respectively), but not when parked and unplugged.
Am I still wrong?
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As has been stated several times EVs or at least the Volt has 2 banks of batteries. One for the power train and another for the creature comforts. In a Volt one can have a fully charged power train battery bank and not be able to power-on the car if the other battery bank is dead. They are completely independent of each other.
Just how much energy do you think it takes to pwoer an EV when stopped in traffic? All that's being powered during daylight hours are the computers, one display and in my case the sound system. Is that even 100 watts? (I don't know, but it's not a lot.) Now compare that to an ICE. How much heat is being generated by the running enging sitting in traffic? Again IDK for sure, but I'm guessing 2,000 - 5,000 watts? I'm thinking probably more.
I know when I park my ICE car in the garage the entire garage heats up. WHen I park my EV there's no increase in temperature.
Use some critical thinking skills. ICE cars when running generate a tremedous amout of heat. Aren't ICE only 20% or less efficient?
How efficient is an electric motor? Not eactly sure but aren't they 75% or more efficent? And then EVs have regenitive breaking, so KE gets coverneted back to PE when slowing down. To slow an ICE down only way to do it is to generate more heat with the breaking system which decreased range.
Does that pass your BS test?
I don't know what's being argued here, I'm one of the pro-EV guys, my only point was that running accessories while sitting stationary will absolutely effect the range of the car. Any car carries with it a finite amount of stored energy, whether that is stored in gasoline/diesel or batteries doesn't matter, running any sort of accessories is going to consume some of this energy. Is it enough to matter? I'd say that depends. Does electric or ICE have the advantage here? Frankly I don't know, but I would bet that in warm weather electric comes out on top but in cold weather ICE may have an advantage since you've got all that waste heat anyway you can have all the cabin heat you want for "free" rather than consuming a considerable amount of battery power operating a heater or heat pump. How much energy is burned up idling an ICE is easy enough to calculate if anyone here has a car that shows real time fuel consumption, we know how many kWh is in a gallon of fuel, although while that would be interesting to know, even if it is (as I suspect) vastly higher than the same situation in an EV, that doesn't change the fact that even with the EV the value is non-zero.
I'm a fan of EV's, that isn't the point. My only argument is you can't have something for nothing, you can't sit there consuming energy without getting that energy from somewhere and whether ICE or electric it's eventually going to come from a common pool that could go toward propulsion instead. Fortunately sitting stationary powering accessories is not a particularly desirable use case.
at the end of the day its batteries that limit electric vehicles. cold fusion is yet to save the day.
James_s Someone is saying if an ICE and a EV are stuck in traffic the range each would be able to travel before refueling would decrease. I have an EV and if I'm sitting in traffic the only energy I'm consuming is to power the computers and sound system. Yes it takes energy to power those devices but how much? 100 or 200 watts? If the car's not moving the drive train batteries are not being discharged.
Now compare that to an ICE sitting in traffic. How much energy/watts are being consumed to power the engine? 2,000? 5,000 watts?
If I recall correctly an ICE car with a full tank of gas just left ideling will run out of fuel in about 12 hours. An EV could sit in traffic for a month or more and still have the amout of range. The energy in the drive train batteries isn't being consumed so one has full range. Yes if one is listening to the sound system and the on board computers have to get power from somewhere.... But just how much or shoudl I say how little energy is that if compared to the energy to move the car.
James_s Someone is saying if an ICE and a EV are stuck in traffic the range each would be able to travel before refueling would decrease. I have an EV and if I'm sitting in traffic the only energy I'm consuming is to power the computers and sound system. Yes it takes energy to power those devices but how much? 100 or 200 watts? If the car's not moving the drive train batteries are not being discharged.
Now compare that to an ICE sitting in traffic. How much energy/watts are being consumed to power the engine? 2,000? 5,000 watts?
If I recall correctly an ICE car with a full tank of gas just left ideling will run out of fuel in about 12 hours. An EV could sit in traffic for a month or more and still have the amout of range. The energy in the drive train batteries isn't being consumed so one has full range. Yes if one is listening to the sound system and the on board computers have to get power from somewhere.... But just how much or shoudl I say how little energy is that if compared to the energy to move the car.
This is getting pedantic but the energy has to ultimately come from the traction batteries, otherwise what is there? A separate battery pack with enough capacity to run all the lighting, electronics, heating/AC, navigation, computers, etc that is only charged independently by the charger when you plug in the car? That doesn't make any sense, if there is a separate battery there has got to be a DC-DC converter fed off the traction battery to charge it, otherwise I'd have to say it's a very strange design decision. Would it really be logical for it to be possible to completely deplete the battery powering all your accessories, computers and lighting while you've still got a giant traction battery with plenty of charge sitting there uselessly unable to power up the car's electronics?
Regarding how much energy is used, I suspect this is going to depend heavily on whether the HVAC system is used. Whether heating or cooling that's going to use a lot of energy. I've heard figures in the range of 2 tons for the refrigeration capacity of a typical car AC system which means something around 2HP, roughly 2kW and I'm betting all currently sold EVs use the AC as a heat pump to provide heat too. I expect most EVs now have LED headlamps so that's what, 30-50W for the pair? All the other electronics maybe a few hundred Watts, seat heater 100-200W, it could easily be 2-3kW worth of load. Tiny compared to the energy required to move the car, but not zero.
It's probably not very significant in real world situations, but I doubt you could sit in traffic for months either, likely closer to a few days. Still likely to come out ahead compared to ICE but you can't say something doesn't consume any energy in a forum full of engineers and not expect someone to nitpick.
If I recall correctly an ICE car with a full tank of gas just left ideling will run out of fuel in about 12 hours.
Now compare that to an ICE sitting in traffic. How much energy/watts are being consumed to power the engine? 2,000? 5,000 watts?
Now compare that to an ICE sitting in traffic. How much energy/watts are being consumed to power the engine? 2,000? 5,000 watts?ICE cars have start/stop systems which shut down the engine when the car isn't moving nowadays so your point is not valid.
Now compare that to an ICE sitting in traffic. How much energy/watts are being consumed to power the engine? 2,000? 5,000 watts?ICE cars have start/stop systems which shut down the engine when the car isn't moving nowadays so your point is not valid.
If I recall correctly an ICE car with a full tank of gas just left ideling will run out of fuel in about 12 hours.The engine in my car is rather big but it only takes 1.4 liters per hour idling. However, the fuel tank is not that large, so it seems max idle time without refueling is about 40 hours. 40 hours with free heat in the winter.
Wow, what an extended discussion!
I think electric cars are it, but, I have never bought a new car and paying more than £25k for an electric car is simply impossible. So it is secondhand ones for me. Has anyone bought a secondhand EV? Other than from a main dealer, what was the experience like? What do you get for £3k, about what I can afford. For that in the UK you can buy a 10 year old car, possibly 70k miles, and if looked after will do another 10-15 years.
Other thoughts on EV.
On a hybrid, does anyone get problems with the unleaded fuel turning to glue after a time? It is said to be a problem but I haven't really faced it even with petrol generators not being used for months.
If you leave an EV for extended periods of time, does the battery discharge? Like your mobile phone, even with it off it needs charging every few days, not like my lamented Nokia 3310.
We have recently had a spate of bitterly cold, for the UK, weather. How much has the range dropped simply to run the 4-5kW of heating needed?
I am surprised that no one seems to have had problems with 10kg of copper charge cables disappearing over night. That is £40 of any ones money, and a whizz around the housing estate should turn up several cables. Good little earner.
What is the reality of towing, say, a 1 to 1.5 tonne trailer? A caravan is that weight but the air resistance is far larger than a simple platform trailer.
Whilst EVs have regererative braking, meaning the footbrake isn't used as much. What about the hydraulics simply seizing up? In winter with the salt is it possible for the brakes to simply stop working without being noticed?
Is this guy correct? ICE car manufactures like Ford lrave out/remove life saving safety features in their cars for the European and Australian markets?
Some cars have that feature. Most don't. In cars which do have it, many people find the need to disable it as the engine ages, as its gets quirky.
With a colleague we were looking at second hand Nissan Leaf EV.
We both don’t do many Km but we need a car for children, shopping and our money generating hobbies. Plus, on his side, the tax laws in Holland (both state and local) make owning a low use small family size IC a bit expensive.
Taking into account predicted usage, cold weather and battery wear, the 2014 or newer Leaf was ideal...
We were very suprised to not be able to find a clean one under 10000€...
These thing are holding their price better than what the doomsayers predicted.
In any case, I still need a “big” car as I am renovating a house.
When we are done, we will get a second hand Leaf combined with rooftop solar and a battery.
I imagine that I am not alone in reaching this conclusion.
Some cars have that feature. Most don't. In cars which do have it, many people find the need to disable it as the engine ages, as its gets quirky.
I've driven a couple of cars that had that ridiculous start/stop system and hated it. It works ok on a hybrid where you have the electric motor to start off the line but on a conventional ICE car produces an obnoxious lag and lurch that is especially noticeable in the typical stop & go traffic during busy times around here. Some of the earlier systems even shut off the engine while the AC is on and it starts blowing warm sticky air. Everyone I know who has one of those disables the system every time they get in the car, it won't stay turned off, you have to push the button every time. The whole thing is just a scam to exploit a loophole in the way emissions are measured, real world savings are negligible.
With a colleague we were looking at second hand Nissan Leaf EV.
We both don’t do many Km but we need a car for children, shopping and our money generating hobbies. Plus, on his side, the tax laws in Holland (both state and local) make owning a low use small family size IC a bit expensive.
Taking into account predicted usage, cold weather and battery wear, the 2014 or newer Leaf was ideal...
We were very suprised to not be able to find a clean one under 10000€...
These thing are holding their price better than what the doomsayers predicted.
In any case, I still need a “big” car as I am renovating a house.
When we are done, we will get a second hand Leaf combined with rooftop solar and a battery.
I imagine that I am not alone in reaching this conclusion.
Interesting how things are different in other countries. In the US the Leaf is not that popular. Out of curiosity I'm looking at prices here for a 2014 and they are around $10,000 to $13,000 USD asking price.
Can you lease? The trend here in California is to lease EVs. The monthly payment is the same or less than financing the purchase of a car. And like smartphones the technology, software and battery life continues to change that it worth it to get a "new" car every 3 - 4 years. In California we receive about $10,000 in tax credits and cash rebates.
Are battery systems worth it? According to Dave battery systems (lead acid) or only 40% efficient. That means for every 10 kWhr the your solar panels produce and store in the batteries you'll only get 6 kWhrs back.
I've asked many people if battery systems make financial sense. Everyone says it does, but then no one has show the math calculations to support their claims.
With a colleague we were looking at second hand Nissan Leaf EV.
We both don’t do many Km but we need a car for children, shopping and our money generating hobbies. Plus, on his side, the tax laws in Holland (both state and local) make owning a low use small family size IC a bit expensive.
Taking into account predicted usage, cold weather and battery wear, the 2014 or newer Leaf was ideal...
We were very suprised to not be able to find a clean one under 10000€...
These thing are holding their price better than what the doomsayers predicted.
In any case, I still need a “big” car as I am renovating a house.
When we are done, we will get a second hand Leaf combined with rooftop solar and a battery.
I imagine that I am not alone in reaching this conclusion.
Interesting how things are different in other countries. In the US the Leaf is not that popular. Out of curiosity I'm looking at prices here for a 2014 and they are around $10,000 to $13,000 USD asking price.
Can you lease? The trend here in California is to lease EVs. The monthly payment is the same or less than financing the purchase of a car. And like smartphones the technology, software and battery life continues to change that it worth it to get a "new" car every 3 - 4 years. In California we receive about $10,000 in tax credits and cash rebates.
Are battery systems worth it? According to Dave battery systems (lead acid) or only 40% efficient. That means for every 10 kWhr the your solar panels produce and store in the batteries you'll only get 6 kWhrs back.
I've asked many people if battery systems make financial sense. Everyone says it does, but then no one has show the math calculations to support their claims.I don’t lease or borrow money to get stuff. Leasing is renting that has a slick lawyer friend and is usually more expensive than owning.
Apart from this, I don’t know how lease contracts are written in the US, but here, finding a deserted crossroad to sell your soul to the Devil is better option.
I intend to wear this car to the ground, like the Iphone4 that I still use today. So any resale is a bonus, not a need. It will carry dirty kids, their dust covered dad and building/furniture material. Very little freeway, rarely will it reach a max of 120km of calm driving a day.
For second hand, there are no incentives, apart from not having certain yearly taxes and not having to lose an hour a week driving to fill up.
The battery is because, for new solar installations here, you basically give your production to the provider for free... So storing after using as much as possible during peak solar hours (either in the car or in the house) is better, if only on an emotional level!
I’ll be going towards a LiO from one of the Local suppliers here. The prices have gone down a lot, and if you can install it yourself, it will make sense in two to three years (did the maths a year ago, it’s in a box, somewhere) at the current energy price trends.
I need 14kWh, and that was stupid expensive last time I moved 4 years ago.
As an aside, I will be changing the roof in two years, and it will be made (by me) with the solar, so no paying twice (roof, then solar). Solar is silly cheap, the installation being the major cost, the alloy supports second, I am equipped to do both.
If I was Joe Twolefthands customer, having to pay somebody to do everything, it would probably be another story.
Interesting how things are different in other countries. In the US the Leaf is not that popular.
According to Dave battery systems (lead acid) or only 40% efficient
I think you need to re-think technology. Why on Earth would you be using an iPhone 4 Today? You can't run the latest apps, which might be required if you wnat to monitor your PV system and most importantly you can't apply the latest security updates which mean you can be the target of cyber-attackers.
Then there's the issue of the battery. Are you still using the orinigal battery? Probebly not. How much and how many times have you had to replace the battery that was not mean to be replaced?
And isn't your iPhone 4 slow and missing a number of radios such as 802.11A and 80.211 C?
You also don't have the figerprint reader which means there are lot of apps which won't work suchs as Wallet and Apple Pay. Why on Earth in this day of credit card theft would you not want to protect your credit cards and your credit?
And please don't tell me you are going to use cash for everthing. Isn't is Sweden that's eliminating cash in just a few years?
You might be happy with an slow, unsecure iPhone 4 whihc is no longer supported. But please do society a favor and upgarde to a smarphone that's secure by modern standards. It's people like you running aroudn with unsecure, unsupproted devices which is allowing cybercriminals to steaal from good honest people.