Perhaps you should google a bit better. Some hydrogen fueling stations use electricity to generate hydrogen. So they use the same electricity as an EV. And even with hydrogen made from fossil fuels the CO2 footprint is lower due to higher efficiency. The latter may ofcourse change when more bio-fuel is used.
I have done just as you say and can NOT find one fueling station using electrolysis to generate hydrogen. Since you seem to know of one why didn't you post it?
You know you would have a lot more credibility with people if you make a claim, you support it with factual evidence instead of telling someone to find it on the web.
Perhaps you should google a bit better. Some hydrogen fueling stations use electricity to generate hydrogen. So they use the same electricity as an EV. And even with hydrogen made from fossil fuels the CO2 footprint is lower due to higher efficiency. The latter may ofcourse change when more bio-fuel is used.
I have done just as you say and can NOT find one fueling station using electrolysis to generate hydrogen. Since you seem to know of one why didn't you post it?
You know you would have a lot more credibility with people if you make a claim, you support it with factual evidence instead of telling someone to find it on the web.
JEEZE MAN DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE POSTING SO YOU CAN BE TRUSTED. You are like that dude posting a bunch of marketing hype BS on biofuels.
Yes my friend the web site clearly states the hydrogen used to fuel hydrogen vehicles is coming from FOSSIL FUELS and specifically NATURAL GAS.
JEEZE MAN DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE POSTING SO YOU CAN BE TRUSTED. You are like that dude posting a bunch of marketing hype BS on biofuels.No, do your own homework! And I'm the one who is very optimistic about bio-fuels as well so have your memory checked or make notes.
Perhaps you should google a bit better. Some hydrogen fueling stations use electricity to generate hydrogen. So they use the same electricity as an EV. And even with hydrogen made from fossil fuels the CO2 footprint is lower due to higher efficiency. The latter may ofcourse change when more bio-fuel is used.
I have done just as you say and can NOT find one fueling station using electrolysis to generate hydrogen. Since you seem to know of one why didn't you post it?
You know you would have a lot more credibility with people if you make a claim, you support it with factual evidence instead of telling someone to find it on the web.
Sorry Doug but your memory is so bad that it makes it impossible to have a normal discussion with you. You keep misreading and misunderstanding.
According to the video i posted, the electricity cost per km for a tesla model 3 is 2 to 2.4 cents, while they hydrogen cost per km for the toyota mirai is 17.7 cents. The tesla model 3 long-range comes with a battery warranty of 8 years or 120000 miles (193000 km), so, for that many miles, the electricity cost is $4632 (at 2.4 cents/km), while the hydrogen cost would be $34161. A difference of $29529.
So, about cost, that doesn't looks good for the mirai. But the mirai has the convenience of a fast fillup. If there where enough stations for the trip, of course.You are not factoring in the costs of the wear on the battery and a large scale charging infrastructure. Sure the Mirai is more expensive right now. It isn't a production car like the Tesla. The same goes for hydrogen. The development of hydrogen is behind compared to pure EVs so right now everything is more expensive. Currently it is very hard to make an accurate estimation on what will be cheaper in a few years taking all costs into account. I've read an old report from 2014 which claims that the infrastructure for hydrogen will be 4 times cheaper than the infrastructure needed to charge EVs. But it is hard to tell how valid that number is in today's situation.
Perhaps you should google a bit better. Some hydrogen fueling stations use electricity to generate hydrogen. So they use the same electricity as an EV. And even with hydrogen made from fossil fuels the CO2 footprint is lower due to higher efficiency. The latter may ofcourse change when more bio-fuel is used.
I have done just as you say and can NOT find one fueling station using electrolysis to generate hydrogen. Since you seem to know of one why didn't you post it?
You know you would have a lot more credibility with people if you make a claim, you support it with factual evidence instead of telling someone to find it on the web.Nice model. Look at the depth of focus.
According to the video i posted, the electricity cost per km for a tesla model 3 is 2 to 2.4 cents, while they hydrogen cost per km for the toyota mirai is 17.7 cents. The tesla model 3 long-range comes with a battery warranty of 8 years or 120000 miles (193000 km), so, for that many miles, the electricity cost is $4632 (at 2.4 cents/km), while the hydrogen cost would be $34161. A difference of $29529.
So, about cost, that doesn't looks good for the mirai. But the mirai has the convenience of a fast fillup. If there where enough stations for the trip, of course.You are not factoring in the costs of the wear on the battery and a large scale charging infrastructure. Sure the Mirai is more expensive right now. It isn't a production car like the Tesla. The same goes for hydrogen. The development of hydrogen is behind compared to pure EVs so right now everything is more expensive. Currently it is very hard to make an accurate estimation on what will be cheaper in a few years taking all costs into account. I've read an old report from 2014 which claims that the infrastructure for hydrogen will be 4 times cheaper than the infrastructure needed to charge EVs. But it is hard to tell how valid that number is in today's situation.At 8 years of battery warranty, and 10 years of expected use until you really need to change them, i assume that most people will change cars by that time. Either battery, or hydrogen based.
I don't see how the hydrogen infrastructure could be cheaper, considering that you need additional steps over the process to charge an BEV, and the steps have lower efficiency, so they need to use more energy to give you a determined amount of kWh:
Battery vehicle: mains voltage -> rectifier/charger -> car
Hydrogen vehicle: mains voltage -> rectifier/electrolyzer -> compressor -> car
And that's with a station that does the electrolysis on-site, so that there is no hydrogen transport involved. I don't know how many of them are out there, but at least the YT video seems to have used one of those to do the maths.
If you want to use EVs on a mass scale without batteries which can be fully charged with 500km of range within 5 minutes you'll need lots of charging points. In the Netherlands it is estimated that there has to be 1 charging point for every 2.5 cars for EVs to be useful. That means that the entire electricity distribution system will need to be replaced (upgraded) BESIDES paying for all the chargers. With hydrogen the current distribution grid of gas stations will suffice and many more people can share the infrastructure so the cost per person will be lower.
At some point there is an optimum for cost and efficiency. That point won't be at the maximum efficiency so don't look primarily at the efficiency.
If you want to use EVs on a mass scale without batteries which can be fully charged with 500km of range within 5 minutes you'll need lots of charging points. In the Netherlands it is estimated that there has to be 1 charging point for every 2.5 cars for EVs to be useful. That means that the entire electricity distribution system will need to be replaced (upgraded) BESIDES paying for all the chargers. With hydrogen the current distribution grid of gas stations will suffice and many more people can share the infrastructure so the cost per person will be lower.
At some point there is an optimum for cost and efficiency. That point won't be at the maximum efficiency so don't look primarily at the efficiency.But hydrogen stations need more electricity per kWh-equivalent on the cars, so the grid will need to be upgraded anyways. I suppose that you could use huge tanks on the stations and constantly produce hydrogen, for it to act as a buffer, so that during peak demand you don't need a ridiculous amount of energy. On average, the power needed will be higher, however.
That is, when hydrogen stations are made that use 100% electrolysis-produced hydrogen. Otherwise, they're not zero-emissions.
Both the hydrogen and battery cars do require green energy production to be zero-emissions, but the hydrogen also needs to be 100% made from electrolysis.
If you want to use EVs on a mass scale without batteries which can be fully charged with 500km of range within 5 minutes you'll need lots of charging points. In the Netherlands it is estimated that there has to be 1 charging point for every 2.5 cars for EVs to be useful. That means that the entire electricity distribution system will need to be replaced (upgraded) BESIDES paying for all the chargers. With hydrogen the current distribution grid of gas stations will suffice and many more people can share the infrastructure so the cost per person will be lower.
At some point there is an optimum for cost and efficiency. That point won't be at the maximum efficiency so don't look primarily at the efficiency.But hydrogen stations need more electricity per kWh-equivalent on the cars, so the grid will need to be upgraded anyways. I suppose that you could use huge tanks on the stations and constantly produce hydrogen, for it to act as a buffer, so that during peak demand you don't need a ridiculous amount of energy. On average, the power needed will be higher, however.
That is, when hydrogen stations are made that use 100% electrolysis-produced hydrogen. Otherwise, they're not zero-emissions.
Both the hydrogen and battery cars do require green energy production to be zero-emissions, but the hydrogen also needs to be 100% made from electrolysis.The way I see it hydrogen makes most sense when it is made at a source like wind or solar (think wind turbines far off-shore and solar in countries with a lot of sun). Converting the electricity to hydrogen will be cheaper because you can use ships to transport the hydrogen. Compare it with oil. A lot of oil is transported using ships because pipelines are too expensive to cover the distance. I'm still sure all this will be cheaper compared to implementing a large electricity grid and storage in batteries (let alone the distribution grid to all the chargers and the chargers themselves). Think about Australia for example. They have a massive amount of space for solar but no way to transport large quantities of electricity outside the country. When converted to hydrogen they can export the energy world wide. The same goes for many countries in the middle east.
Until then some kind of transition needs to be made because the renewable sources are not going to be installed over night. Ultimately some business model needs to emerge for a company to invest in a large scale solar or wind power hydrogen generation plant. That will only happen if there is a large enough demand. Right now hydrogen might be less efficient than using electricity to power an EV directly but to me the economic advantages of hydrogen in the long run are clearly there. EVs and grid storage batteries are a dead end IMHO. It just doesn't scale.
And even then it is not a given hydrogen will ever be used to power cars on a large scale. In my opinion bio-fuels hold the best cards at the moment because the process in itself is very low-tech. Even for the third generation bio-fuels (which comes down to brewing beer from plant leftovers and distilling it). Bio-fuels also don't require the consumers to invest in new technology (=buy a new car) so the threshold for adoption is extremely low. Currently the Duth government is pushing gas stations to make blends with higher amounts of ethanol available at every gas station. Once implemented it will push the CO2 emissions down immediately. No tax incentive for EVs or hydrogen will be as effective to reduce CO2 emissions quickly.
"Looking forward, supportive policies and cost reductions are likely to lead to continued significant growth in the EV market. In the IEA’s New Policies Scenario, which takes into account current and planned policies, the number of electric cars is projected to reach 125 million units by 2030. Should policy ambitions rise even further to meet climate goals and other sustainability targets, as in the EV30@30 Scenario, the number of electric cars on the road could be as high as 220 million in 2030."
Here's a twist on autonomous self-driving cars no one has discussed so far. I was at a cybersecurity conference today in San Francisco toady. One of the presenters was speaking on data privacy and personal data privacy. One of the questions he asked the audience what is the "push" to get autonomous self-driving cars to market. (Never saw this one coming.) The reason Google, Waymo, Apple and the venture capitalists want to see autonomous self-driving cars on the road is to collect personal data on the passengers and be able to market to them while in the car. Just think of the gold mine of data the companies can collect on the passengers.
Just think of the profits companies like Google and Facebook selling your personal data and your meta data. It only takes a few hundred of your "Like" clicks to have a Big Data profile on you. Advertisers are willing to pay a premium for that information.